The Joomla extension developers con
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- damo
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I've thought about writing this for a long time but I've committed to it today since RocketTheme confirmed that you can buy a single template without joining the club and that when you buy that template you'll get security updates for life.
What I want to write about is the extension developer con that has, for me anyway, gone on are too long in the world of Joomla. You all know this con; you buy an extension but have to pay every year or in some instances every 30, 60 or 90 days, to get security updates.
Why, when you buy a product, do you have to keep paying for it year after year just so it is secure. If you want all the new features that might come with it, sure, pay for the annual subscription, but a lot of the time you wont want these new features, you'll just want the product to do what it is supposed to do, the reason you bought it and leave it at that.
I'm I alone in thinking that if someone builds something and then sells it, it is the sellers responsibility to make sure what they're selling is secure.
I'm not naming any names but I don't see why I should continue paying for a piece of software each year just to get security updates. Thankfully this isn't everyone in the world of Joomla, but there are a few that do this and the number seems to be increasing and I think it's a con.
And well done RocketTheme for supporting your products when people buy them. - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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The situation with templates is a little bit different than with extensions.
Once you build a template, you won't change much during the years. Yes, you will fix a bug here and there, but that is about it. You won't add many new features and things that you could say that you spent a lot of time on an additional development
With extensions, you usually have lots of new things and features which you add a version after version. You don't just fix security issues. You also add new features, make things better, change the code to make things faster.
I have to disagree with you. I believe that if you expect new and better extension with each version, you should buy it.
Otherwise, devs could also decide to just fix security issues, but keep old version of the extensions so you can download the same version but with the latest security issues fixed. Honestly, in any way, developers do spend a lot of time on their extension maintenance and they are also human and I am sure many of them have a family which requires food from time to time. They live from extension development in the same way as you live from using them. You can also charge access to your website where you use their extensions and you probably earn some money using it so it is fair that you pay something in return - Check my services at: Mihha-Vision
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- damo
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Igor Mihaljko wrote:
The situation with templates is a little bit different than with extensions.
Once you build a template, you won't change much during the years. Yes, you will fix a bug here and there, but that is about it. You won't add many new features and things that you could say that you spent a lot of time on an additional development
With extensions, you usually have lots of new things and features which you add a version after version. You don't just fix security issues. You also add new features, make things better, change the code to make things faster.
I have to disagree with you. I believe that if you expect new and better extension with each version, you should buy it.
Otherwise, devs could also decide to just fix security issues, but keep old version of the extensions so you can download the same version but with the latest security issues fixed. Honestly, in any way, developers do spend a lot of time on their extension maintenance and they are also human and I am sure many of them have a family which requires food from time to time. They live from extension development in the same way as you live from using them. You can also charge access to your website where you use their extensions and you probably earn some money using it so it is fair that you pay something in return
I don't think there is much difference between templates and extensions, it's only because you've bought in the con and I'm not saying you shouldn't have the option to buy updates or join the 'exension update' club of an extension provider. I'm saying that that doesn't exist at the moment that I'm aware of.
SEF Advance from Sakic is a great example. You buy the extension once and you get all the updates (sometimes he even throws in new features too) for as long as the extension has a life, which is determined by the length of the Joomla version you bought for. And he manages to put food on the table and he also lives from extension development.
With others and I wont name them but there are lots, you buy an extension and it has little to no feature or product updates and two or three security patches a year, but you've still got to buy the extension again the following year or pay a fair chunk of change to not get the updates.
My point is if I buy an extension at version 2.2 and that is all I want, I should get free security updates to that version for as long as that extension is running in a supported Joomla version.
As for me (or I'm sure others) charging people to access our website or that the site where we use the extensions makes money and that it's fair you pay for something in return .... that's the bloody purchase price!!!
What RocketTheme have done with this; a product and free security patches for the life of the product is going to rock the boat. Andy rocked the boat when he started the club model here and this will do it again because people are starting to get fed up paying more for very little. - Last Edit: 10 years 9 months ago by damo.
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- Ben Lee
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Just for the record, RocketTheme has ALWAYS offered security updates for templates regardless of whether your subscription was expired or not. These were offered for free as a patch to be applied.
Igor is correct though in stating that templates really don't change much and the number of actual security updates for a template are far less. This has only come up once or twice in the years I've been working with Joomla.
I personally really like the subscription options we have here because I like different templates year after year and a subscription is a way RocketTheme can maintain a business and offer a HUGE selection.
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- damo
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I'm not saying Igor is wrong or that the subscription model isn't great.
But if you buy some software I don't think it's right that you have to pay for extra stuff that is developed after, if you don't want it, just to get security patches - which is the case with extension developers.
If you donwlaod an app today for your phone and the developer is working on it, you don't pay again when you update it.
If you buy a computer and the operating system gets patched for a security vulnerability, you dont have to keep paying just for those. Sure, if it's a brand new operating system you can chose to buy it and one day, you'll have to get a new one anyway, but with a lot of extension providers, you have to keep buying it every year to get security patches.
And that is the part I think is wrong. And I think more and more people will start to get annoyed with that. - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- Roeland_A!
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damo wrote:
I'm not saying Igor is wrong or that the subscription model isn't great.
But if you buy some software I don't think it's right that you have to pay for extra stuff that is developed after, if you don't want it, just to get security patches - which is the case with extension developers.
If you donwlaod an app today for your phone and the developer is working on it, you don't pay again when you update it.
If you buy a computer and the operating system gets patched for a security vulnerability, you dont have to keep paying just for those. Sure, if it's a brand new operating system you can chose to buy it and one day, you'll have to get a new one anyway, but with a lot of extension providers, you have to keep buying it every year to get security patches.
And that is the part I think is wrong. And I think more and more people will start to get annoyed with that.
There is another element you are skipping:
With all the joomla issues going on over the last period, it is almost impossible to keep an extension up to date.
I put in the effort to upgrade rokbridge from 1.5 to 2.5, many people wanted it, pretty much stalking me to get it.
Invested 1.5 years to get it done without bugs. Then when push came to shove, all peops that said they would support it, did not...
With the awkward change from 3.1 to 3.2 where again joomla core was radically altered and many functions deprecated, I worked like an idiot for 1.5 months again...
In that case I think a member model works best, want to have upgraded stuff, I'll upgrade it, but that comes at a price too.
That has not only to do with security updates, but also with how joomla works and that has not really been a stable development path, to state it mildly. - *Karma comes in many forms, my personal favourite is the random saucepan from the sky* J.Spencer 17-02-2009
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- damo
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I'm not skipping it. I even mention it above in the SEF Advance example.
And I feel bad for you that you spent all that time developing an extension because you thought people would be up for it, but that's a calculated business risk you have to take and not all of those come good.
As for keeping an extension up to date for a current Joomla version, that is also the cost of doing business. It's not supposed to be easy otherwise we'd all be making enough to 'put food on the table' from building extensions. But an element of providing an extension for Joomla 2.5 or 3 is that it works on that platform and is secure.
New features, sure set up a subscription model and allow people to get that if they want. But having to pay to keep something you bought secure is wrong.
And anyone that says different, in my book is wrong. And you'd be just as mad if Apple turned around and started charging you for security patches after 12 months of having a new Macbook. - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- Ben Lee
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damo wrote:
And you'd be just as mad if Apple turned around and started charging you for security patches after 12 months of having a new Macbook.
In all fairness, Apple charges a little bit more for their products than the typical Joomla extension provider. This is a valid arguement, but it needs to consider that the price of an extension might be 4 times higher or more for the developer to make it a reasonable business.
Subscriptions aren't perfect, but they get pretty close in my book.
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- damo
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Do Apple charge more? That isn't a serious question.
Price doesn't matter. Price is irrelevant.
Take an app that you use on your phone that you have paid for. Probably a lot less than a Joomla extension. How pissed would you be if the developer turned around and said sorry fella, I gotta put 'food on the table' and I've spent hours upgrading this app, so if you want the security patch you gotta buy it again.
Even if the app did exactly what you wanted and you didn't want all the extra stuff that he or she has done .. because wait for it, that wasn't what you purchased.
Like I said, the Joomla extension developer con ... - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- David Goode
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Hi Damo,
This is an interesting subject but for the benefit of people reading this thread I would like to clarify a few points so they do not get lost among the rest of the posts.
Damo wrote:I'm not naming any names but I don't see why I should continue paying for a piece of software each year just to get security updates. Thankfully this isn't everyone in the world of Joomla, but there are a few that do this and the number seems to be increasing and I think it's a con.The Key Point in this thread is "security updates". RocketTheme have always believed that if any of our templates became subjected to a security issue then any 'update' or 'patch' would be provided to our members, even if their membership was expired. We can do this because we have faith in the quality of our templates and there is only so much you can do with a template.
And well done RocketTheme for supporting your products when people buy them.
This leads to the area of this thread that has caused the debate in the first instance - extensions. While it is acknowledged that some developers charge an annual fee for any updates, security and/or features, we recognise that many users will have no choice but to keep paying if they want to remain secure. No amount of posting on our forums will change the mind of those developers.
However, we are pleased to be able to say that any RocketTheme membership includes FREE access to our extensions and this includes support and updates while membership is active. However, if you purchase a template license that will have lifetime support and updates. You can see the comparisons here - www.rockettheme.com/docs/accounts_billing/comparisons.md
With our new site, improved forums, and increased membership offers at great value for money prices, we hope to provide an example that others can follow.
Thanks for an interesting debate. - Last Edit: 10 years 9 months ago by David Goode. Reason: Misleading words were clarified.
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