Should I ditch Joomla! or what?
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- VitalBodies.com
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Where the real challenge seems to be is to choose the correct path.
Like doing a search, it helps to have the correct KEYWORDS.
Once you have that the rest falls into place.
Not to say this is the correct PATH:
My first incline would be to simply add the right bunch of code to a module or modules and not mess with Joolma core and such other wise.
I would want to use strict code so is portable and a bit more modular plus future ready for this or other projects. I would as a purist separate, structure, data and style.
I would try to keep it as stripped down and simple and base level as possible and use W3C standards and open source file formats.
I do get the sense that this could be done this way, but like trying to get the correct answer you generally have to ask the right question... -
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- VitalBodies.com
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This is my own problem/issue/challenge and I do not expect anyone to help or chime in. Yet this is a somewhat generic issue that many have which makes it more fun to contribute to.
Clearly there are others that might want to use forms to query a database using PHP and would like it to be user friendly and go beyond simple HTML.
Throw in a bit more of a challenge and we add W3C standards and keeping Joomla upgradeable.
Increase the challenge a notch higher and you add in accessibility and strict valid code and CSS.
My own customers site is functioning as is but we can do better than mere function. This is where the fun begins! What the RT people stopped at just function? I do not think you would all be here... -
http://www.VitalBodies.com
Organic, Eco, Vital and Sustainable...
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Web Site Design - Green, W3C and Open Source...
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- Ragdata
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hehe ... thought that would tickle you.
I got the impression from the last post I answered (last post on page 1) that this was a commercial job in which time was an issue. I'm not at all averse to working this through with you. And yes, this is an interesting little problem with a valuable solution, if one is to be found. Perhaps even worthy of submission to the Joomla Devs for inclusion in future releases.
One question is do we need either? We are merely submitting a small amount of data to a data base and then displaying the results of that query.I think so. Joomla very deliberately sends instructions to the browser at every turn in order to prevent local caching - and we specifically want to circumvent that as a first step in finding a solution to this problem.
I would try to keep it as stripped down and simple and base level as possible and use W3C standards and open source file formats. I do get the sense that this could be done this way, but like trying to get the correct answer you generally have to ask the right question...I think you are correct to take this approach in the absence of any commercial pressures. Bear in mind though, that even the core Joomla project contains "transitional" as opposed to "strict" coding techniques in order to attempt a "best fit" between standards, functionality and ease of use for a wider community.
Clearly there are others that might want to use forms to query a database using PHP and would like it to be user friendly and go beyond simple HTML.Now this is where we start getting our hands (tongues) tied. As a standalone solution, this couldn't be easier. We just send the header instructions to the browser to open up private caching and we have our solution. Within the Joomla framework, however, we have a multitude of existing constraints that we need to work around.
Throw in a bit more of a challenge and we add W3C standards and keeping Joomla upgradeable.
Increase the challenge a notch higher and you add in accessibility and strict valid code and CSS.
It may even be that we cannot achieve this within the confines of a Joomla Component. It may require core hacks in order to get around the 'no-cache' instructions sent by Joomla. I'm investigating the Output Override provisions of the 1.5 architecture as we speak in order to get my own personal project - DeepPockets - to work "correctly" within that architecture. I'm thinking that this may be a little further down the execution tree than we want to be for this problem though.
I will, no doubt, find the specific pieces of code we need to be working with. Whether or not we can override as opposed to overwrite these instructions will be another question. - Ragdata's Rubber Duck
www.ragdata.net/
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- VitalBodies.com
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Clearly you know Joomla better than I. I think if you are going down the path of dealing with the cache issue then you feel that POST is the way to go over GET, REQUEST or even PUT.
I think if I understood what I read here and there that only the POST method tends to tie us to the cache which as you indicated tangles us with Joomla. GET seemed like the way to go to me at first glance as the learning curve to implement that seem do-able to the beginner. The beginner does not usually see the whole picture and you mentioned security as a possible issue not seen.
REQUEST it is said, can use cookies and the be like POST, yet PUT can send the data using XML and XFORMs can send the data to more than one place where HTML in a sense can not.
How do you frame the problem mentally?
We have to get the data to go in two directions?
The data needs to be sent and retrieved? Reading and writing?
To fill out the search form with the user choices AFTER the search we need to...
Write the data then read it and write it again when the back button is pushed?
Not leave the search form but add the results to that page.
Other...
Also, Joomla has a search feature, do you know off hand what it uses, POST or GET or...? -
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Organic, Eco, Vital and Sustainable...
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- VitalBodies.com
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I feel to leave behind the commercial constrains for the fun a challenge.
One thing that haunts me though is that I keep thinking that this is a basic type of a problem and would have been overcome by countless others before us. Your comments seem to indicate otherwise. If you are right then no wonder I did not find the easy answer in days of looking. But that can happen if you do not ask the right question or use the right keywords also.
So your project is halted (or fill in the correct word) until you make it past some issue.
What is the wall you are up against? -
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- Ragdata
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1.0.x search component uses GET, which I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like (in addition, for some incomprehensible reason, it strips away several of the security provisions of the core). 1.5.x uses POST.
The main reason I like POST is that there is immediately a hurdle in place for someone working to compromise the application - not a high hurdle, but somewhere to start. Building upon that base, as you've previously mentioned, we then have more options at our disposal to encode and transmit data.
How do I frame the problem mentally? One-way - server to client. All we need to do is send the appropriate headers to IE in order to get it to function in a way similar to Firefox and other browsers. If we were to go "full-duplex" we may as well be writing an AJAX application which strips responsibility for the dilemma away from the browser entirely.
This is our main hurdle - the browser. And don't forget - not a single bloody one of them is fully W3C compliant (except perhaps Lynx). The research I did based upon your earliest posts in this thread indicated to me that the majority of developers are taking the "build a bridge and get over it" tact because of the industry-wide distaste for anything with an MS prefix. I didn't find ANYTHING within the Joomla community to indicate that anyone had even considered tackling the problem (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist - simply that I haven't come across it in the past couple of days if it does).
My project hasn't halted (despite speculation in one forum or another) - I've simply chosen to exercise my GPL-given right not to release ALL code modifications
The only wall is that I need time to fully absorb the 1.5.x API and redesign the DeepPockets architecture so that it is adding to and not simply replicating functionality provided by the core. 1.5 incorporates some of the principles I built into DeepPockets back in the Mambo days, and again when I released DeepPockets II. The "Output Overrides" provided for in the 1.5 core mirror the core functionality of DeepPockets (being the 'subtemplating' functionality). Each version of DeepPockets has been intimiately tied to the core of the application by extending and overriding core classes rather than doing things a completely different way (as many other components do). In this way, I draw upon the strengths of the core, leave what frailties I can behind, and preserve 'upgradability' by writing code that does not interfere in any way with the core.
I want to do the same with DeepPockets III - to do so requires that I become as familiar with the code as the core developers. This takes a little time, and I have spent the past year waiting for the core Joomla Devs to stabilise the 1.5 architecture to the point where I don't need to second-guess their next step. They're finally there, so I have only just now begun my work. - Ragdata's Rubber Duck
www.ragdata.net/
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- VitalBodies.com
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My question stems from attempting to create some common ground so as to create the opportunity of being supportive should the possibility arise, not trying to sneek trade secrets out of you. Your process sounds pretty deep so it not likely I can help but I wanted to open.
I would say that in terms of your web site www.aequitas-internet.com/ and the software you mentioned, that you should consider saying what needs to be said not just in words but images/graphics also. I think that would go a long ways towards helping people instantly GET what your program is all about, PUT it to use and REQUEST others to try it by adding a POST about it on their blogs or Joomla sites. :cheesy: -
http://www.VitalBodies.com
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- Ragdata
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Thank you.
I'm thinkng about 'marketing' DeepPockets III more extensively than I have in the past. Ultimately, I wrote it just for me and I use it often - but thought that other developers may get a kick out of the way it was written. The way I've extended and overridden functionality rather than use my own ideas was really a way to show how flexible the Joomla API is. Other developers LOVED it - people looking for a quick-fix HATED it ... and honestly, that has suited me just fine. The limited success of DeepPockets - the reviews it has received and the way it has been received by the community worked really well for me professionally. This is the reason why the Aequitas website hasn't been updated in years, and why I don't support DeepPockets as well as I probably should - I simply don't have the time.
There really are no trade secrets in DeepPockets - it's all in the Joomla API for everyone to see. All I've done is make it work the way I wanted it to. I welcome your approach on common ground, and encourage you to pull apart the DeepPockets code if you are ever thus inclined. I feel that doing so would help you and many developers to see the Joomla codebase for the fabulously elegant thing of beauty that it is.
In this way, I myself am a kind of 'purist'. I read code as easily as many others read a newspaper and I am often frustrated by the approach taken by other 3rd-party developers in the community. It seems that few know how to use API documentation, and that even fewer even bother to TRY to read someone else's code.
One of my pet hates is seeing someone declare themselves to be a "PHP Programmer" - or even worse, try to infer that I am such. I've said it in other places in writing and even more often to clients meeting me for the first time ...
"There is no such thing as a PHP Programmer. There are programmers who can and will use any language that is best suited to the job at hand - and then there are pretenders." I'm getting the hint that you may be of the same ilk as myself - so perhaps we have our common ground after all? - Ragdata's Rubber Duck
www.ragdata.net/
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- VitalBodies.com
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Still stuck.
NOTE: Caps are for emphasis not yelling or anger.
I tried the GET method to see how far I could GET.
Works well in a number of areas and actually might be the best over all for SEO.
That remains to be seen, but since the site pulls listings from a data base and the search engines do not click the SEARCH button I need to provide them the ways and means to crawl.
Every time I try to do ANYTHING with my PHP form in Joomla I hit the wall.
OK, I am new at Joomla but now have two Joomla sites up and I like Joomla IF and ONLY IF I can get past the technical issues.
My best guess is that I am at fault but do not know how to do things the Joomla way.
Like adding PHP.
You do not just add it, you need a plugin. Learned the hard way - so are forms the same way?.
I am coming from the CODE EVERYTHING BY HAND world and could use a helping hand.
In my world, you code to exacting specs, and get exacting results.
And yes, I am a purist, but I do not think that is the issue - at least so far.
I think the issue is being - flat out - naive to Joomla.
So I used the GET method.
Ok fine, ...and my IF ELSEIF ELSE php code is working - a first!
OH heck (or some other word), the search can NOT find ANY residential listings WITHIN JOOMLA.
Works fine out side of Joomla.
I tried copying and pasting the URLs of the IN and OUT of Joomla and carefully try to see if there is a conflict.
I do not see any.
Joomla is not using any of the &BLAH=BLAHBLAH or &foo=foobar that I am.
So why AGAIN am I hitting the wall?
The site on Joomla: http://www.17lakesrealestate.com/shop/mls-search/new-features-test-page.html
Same search on Joomla using POST: http://www.17lakesrealestate.com/shop/searchformhtml.html
Same search OFF Joomla: http://www.17lakesrealestate.com/test_stuff/if_else.php?
Forgive the typos...
NOTE: Nothing, that I can tell, indicates this is a RT issue.
PS: most of my code "pure" friends scoff at me for trying a CMS "as they are nothing but problems"... -
http://www.VitalBodies.com
Organic, Eco, Vital and Sustainable...
http://www.VitalBodies.net
Web Site Design - Green, W3C and Open Source...
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- Ragdata
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I am coming from the CODE EVERYTHING BY HAND world and could use a helping hand.I think this really sums up your problem. Are you comfortable with object-oriented programming? How often do you employ 3rd-party libraries in your software?
In my world, you code to exacting specs, and get exacting results.
And yes, I am a purist, but I do not think that is the issue - at least so far.
I think the issue is being - flat out - naive to Joomla.
I too come from a code everything by hand world. In my part of the world though, it's seen as an asset if you're able to plug into code written and maintained by someone else. With each of these libraries - especially if they're released to you under a GPL license - you have 2 options. You can either use the library "as-is", and accept the constraints that come with it - or you can modify it as far as you see necessary and maintain your own private "mini-fork". I mean, really, this is the most basic premise of Open Source software, isn't it?
Now, whether or not you modify it, you're going to need to "talk" to the objects in these libraries in a particular way. You can see Joomla as just one BIG library that needs to be talked to in a specific way. Because it's bigger, it has a larger vocabulary. As with ANY "language" the longer your sentence, the heavier the constraint on each successive word you can correctly use in that sentence.
You are on the right track with developing a "plugin" for Joomla to do what you need - but as we've discussed previously, there is a lot of code in Joomla which specifically prevents private caching. If you still want to get around that problem, I think you're best direction would be to investigate whether a Joomla plugin - or "bot" - could take care of it. Joomla "plugins" typically scan the output of Joomla for particular patterns and modify or add to that output according to their design.
You may want to consider writing your form as a custom Joomla "component" or component-plugin pair. As a "self-contained" component, it would be responsible for the form, processing, and resultant output. As a component-plugin pair, you would make your component responsible for the form and have the core Joomla Search Component return listings from your custom database table with the aid of a plugin. Although, I think the second method you would find a little "messy".
Get into the API and get familiar. :cheesy:
PS: most of my code "pure" friends scoff at me for trying a CMS "as they are nothing but problems"...Would they say the same of the 3rd-party libraries Joomla employs like Domit, Geshi, patTemplate, tcpdf? How about those further down in a PHP build like GD and zLib? Joomla draws upon all of these and provides libraries of its own plus a well-defined API which allows you to extend or override ALL aspects of its functionality. This is the main reason why I consider Joomla a "thing of beauty"! Once you're familiar with the API, you'll realise that you aren't at all as constrained as you may have thought you once were - this codebase is just THAT damn elegant!
If you do enough of a particular kind of software development for websites, you soon realise that there are common functionalities that you don't want to have to recode for every project - Joomla takes care of these. If your project didn't call for the functionality Joomla provides, then you wouldn't use it.
I think avoiding Joomla because "all CMSs are nothing but problems" could be described as short-sighted at best. Sounds to me like your code "pure" friends are just afraid to admit that they don't know how to properly read and reference an API. - Ragdata's Rubber Duck
www.ragdata.net/
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