Using RT Templates professionaly....Cheating??
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- Pat LHB
- Jr. Rocketeer
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Hey, I know this is an older thread, but I'd like to weigh in on the customer side.
I had been working with a designer who led me to believe that he was designing a custom site based on my extensive specifications. Later, I heard about templates and did some searching, found Rockettheme, and discovered that he had used a template to "custom-design" my site. Now, it might have been a simple miscommunication, but it caused further troubles in the design process. For one, I now realized why he couldn't design in some of the things that I was asking for--they were limitations designed-into the template. Had he said, Go to Rockettheme, look at what the template can do, I would have been able to adapt my specs accordingly...
So: Rule #1: tell the customer that you're designing with a template, and make it part of the collaboration process. And:
How much can a person expect to pay a designer to customize a template? Not just slap a logo on the header, edit the footer, and drop in Google analytics, but to change and add modules in these locations and configure them to work as the customer wants
Since adapting a template is sold as easier to do than custom, should we expect to pay Same cost as custom? 10% less? 25% less? 50% less?
Thanks,
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- John Hodgkinson
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- Retired, but build and run websites for organisations of school leaders and others - e.g. http://www.icponline.org, http://www.aspa.asn.au, http://www.appa.asn.au
- I tell the people for whom I build the site that I am a site builder, not a programmer, and that I use a template, and where I get that template from. I do not charge for the template - any cost like that is built into the overall cost of the initial basic site (2-4 pages) to approve layout, logo and its position, colour scheme, navigation and that sort of thing. Anything other than that is charged at an hourly rate, the amount of which depends on whether I do the work or someone whom I contract to do it. I charge a flat rate to install and configure addons such as gallery or blog components, with the cost of the addon (if it is a commercial one) being charged at the price that I paid for it.
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- Empowermom
- Hero Rocketeer
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For Pat:
Sorry about this long post, but I've been mulling over this issue for some days now. The answer, once you think about it, is pretty complicated to explain to a client. They are always in a hurry and I'm NeVeR good on the "short" answer when put to the fire.
First, clients should know when designers use a template AND where they came from. The benefit to the client is less time spent tracking down bugs or one misplaced semi-colon which can (and will) blow out an entire site! I once spent over a week finding ONE misplaced semi-colon in someone else's style sheet. A totally talented designer lost his job over that and I almost got fired too! Take a look at a css style sheet sometime. See just how easy that can happen.
RT Templates have been through the mill as far as testing goes. It's the first thing I tell someone when I send them here. It actually SAVES our clients money (and often our sanity) during the production phase and enables us to utilize our time on more creative endeavors.
Second, Joomla has been a God-send to many of us. The "core" has been completed for us. Convenient? Yes. But it's up to us to mold that core into something cohesive, unique and aesthetically pleasing for our clients. Next, there are currently 4794 extensions in the Joomla core directory. Which ones do you actually need and which ones are "fluff" (a.k.a. useless)? Do you know what to do with them when you get them? How to troubleshoot them? How to custom code them?
Third, I am thankful that RT allows us to use their templates however we please. I'm proud to send my clients here to take a peek at what is available to them. As a matter of fact, I encourage them to get their own membership and I'll provide training on template usage and site maintenance. Realistically, most don't want to bother with it. I'm fine with it either way.
Using a pre-existing template by no means diminishes the fact we have spent our time learning the ins and outs of the content management system, which then requires a working knowledge of databases, servers, several coding languages (Php, Css, Html, Xhtml, Java, Browser variations and workarounds....), computer/internet architecture, and where to get the best deal on hosting. We haven't touched on the nuts and bolts of marketing, niche placements, advertising or site maintenance yet. As it stands, RocketTheme happens to be a "supplier" for some of us. But only for the template (and of course terrific support if "we" need it which ALSO trickles down to the client).
So, let's discuss that discount you wanted? As of this moment, there are 28 people listed on the RocketTheme Team roster. These folks work continually and nonstop to produce a single template each month. They are ALL dedicated, hard working, talented, educated, professional, skilled people who love their craft. It shows in their work every month. That means I have a team of 28 people here (along with thousands of helpful members) to please you and only you if I choose to use one of their templates for your site.
So let's figure that out.... hmmmm..... 28 people working 40 hours per week for one month on one template. (okay ANDY, stop laughing, I know it's more) for a month. That's 4,816 hours involved in the production of ONE template! Let's say they all make $5.50/hour (ditto above comment). That's a $26,488.00 payroll for one template. We haven't counted expenses and overhead. Do you REALLY want to pay that much for me to design a template? Is it worth half that? 25% even? JUST for the TEMPLATE?
Multiply that by a current selection of over 70 templates and you have over 337,000 man hours that went into creating those selections for you. AND that's ONLY for Joomla, not Wordpress, Drupal and PhpBB. And let's not forget about those must have extensions. They too require expertise to get set up (and functional) on a site.
Personally, I could not singularly produce the quality product RT does in one month if I started from scratch. For the record, neither does RocketTheme. These templates are in the planning stages longer than 30 days, I can assure you.
So think of it this way:
Do you pay an interior designer less for that "one of a kind" showstopping room in your home simply because they did not create and manufacture every item they purchased? No. You pay them to provide you with a design that is "uniquely you," not to educate you on suppliers and the DIY of it all.
I can assure you, once you pick out a template, it's not a matter of "just slapping up a few different graphics" to customize it. You pay us to provide exactly what you want that fits your personal and/or professional style. Just like an interior designer, many developers use RocketTheme as a "supplier" for their patterns. But don't let that fool you. While you may find the perfect pattern in a template, it's only one of the many building blocks involved in creating a full blown site. In over 20 years I have yet to meet a client who wants anything "out of the box." If "they" were out there, "we" wouldn't have so many jobs.
THAT is what you are paying for. Someone who can use that layout to "brand" you by utilizing all the tools of the trade. Templates are just one of our tools. But hey, if you want to spend a few years learning what we know and how to put it all together, go ahead. THEN, you can join this club, download a template and customize away. Where will your business and your site be while you are spending all that time "learning"?
I, for one, realize the value we have as club members and appreciate the hard work and dedication of every RT staff member that goes into each template. In addition, I am both humble and proud when I can offer such a wide selection to clients without having to produce them solo.
RT Templates, coupled with the terrific support of RT and my fellow members, along with my skills create happy clients. All in all, $3,000 for a fully functional site is quite reasonable even though I don't charge that much. It's a win/win for all.
Cheers to all and have a great day!
P.S. If this post causes RT to go up on their membership rates, I swear I didn't do it!!!!!
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- Henning
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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What a nice post! I don't do so much webdesign and have not more then 5 sites online I would say (I do more design for print). I charge my (very few) webdesigns based on the time I spent (far less the 3000$). If I would try to achieve what RT does with its templates it would take me months and still I would not be able to do the same. And nobody could pay me – so I would get no jobs. So RT lets me offer nice websites for a good price.
Like Empowermom I see RT as my external-team-of-super-heroes. Working with other external devs was a pain for me. In the future I plan to not longer to rely so much on RT's monthly templates ... doing my own stuff with gantry – that is what I will try in the future. - Last Edit: 14 years 6 months ago by Henning.
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- Joe Halleck
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- Empowermom
- Hero Rocketeer
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- Henning said what I was saying in a nutshell..... these guys are my super-heros! Nuff said.
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- Pat LHB
- Jr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 23
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Thanks John, Empowermom, Henning and Joe for your comments. Though I must say Joe, yours is cryptic to my non-techie mind. Do you mean to say Web designers using Rockettheme should charge 10% more to customize a template than a designer designing full custom? What would make it cost more to customiize a template than to design custom?.
Empowermom, please note that I did not ask for a discount. I asked How much can a person expect to pay a designer to customize a template? My reference to the "slap a logo onthe header..." is to a previous msg (written by a developer in fact) in the thread (the one where Jem quoted from a thread posted elsewhere.) Now I did indicate an assumption that hiring a designer to customize a template would be either the same cost or various amounts less, not more, than custom--I've read all the promotion material, and most sell the use of templates as a cost-saving opportunity. Indeed, you concede that point in your message.
I certainly didn't mean to diminish web designers who design from templates. I'm shopping for one, and I'm just trying to figure out the potential cost differential.
As for paying the payroll costs for Rockettheme, I'm not sure how that applies. I figure Rockettheme is as dedicated as any other business; they do good work or I wouldn't be here. However, I assume that they've established their prices in a way that allows them to recoup their costs and make a tidy profit via the club memberships. That you incorporate them into your business to deliver a product and a service is no different than a car mfr buying a component part from a dedicated part supplier--usually the car mfr buys, not makes, the part because it allows them to add higher quality at a lower cost, so they can pay less to make the car and thus to lower the price (to compete) for customers. This applies whether the car maker is a Hyundai or a Lexus.
The same applies to the wonderful selection of templates supplied by Rockettheme--I'm not paying for all the cars on a lot, I'm paying for one car, and I assume the cost of carrying the large inventory likely is built into the price of the one car -- in this case the price I pay Rockettheme for the club membership for a certain # of live sites. I can't see how this would affect your price of customizing a template, except to say you can direct your clients to this valuable resource and they'd be so grateful they'd hire you,
I'm still trying to figure out what I need in a website: will a lower-cost Hyundai model suffice to start? or should I go for the mid-price Accord website? I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position to consider a Porsche site. But with a car, I know the difference, I understand the trade-offs; in a website design, I don't yet. Thanks for helping me.
Thanks,
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- Henning
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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in fact I overlooked your previous post, sorry. Mine was targeted to empowermom.
Of course the effort for a unique joomla template (or site) is much higher then using (and modifying) a template. - Last Edit: 14 years 6 months ago by Henning.
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- Joe Halleck
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- Empowermom
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Pat:
I was aware you didn't say everything I responded to. I started my response at 2:00 am yesterday morning and edited the heck out of that post many times before I felt comfortable posting it. Every one has their own views on this subject. I guess I got carried away. Some days, I'm too lazy to use the quotes. Yesterday was one of them, so shame one me! LOL
I'm still trying to figure out what I need in a website: will a lower-cost Hyundai model suffice to start? or should I go for the mid-price Accord website? I'm pretty sure I'm not in the position to consider a Porsche site. But with a car, I know the difference, I understand the trade-offs; in a website design, I don't yet.
A good web designer will take the time to assess your needs and give you a price before any work is done. Every site is different.
Using a template or not doesn't affect "MY" pricing . While it may appear an "easier" thus "cheaper" way to go, that's not the case. It still requires a good bit of coding and expertise to customize for you. In some instances, it may even be more difficult if you pick something the designer isn't familiar with. In short, we need to know the code either way. ANY template has limitations and we have to know how it's going to interact with modules and extensions you select.
Most clients come to the table with an idea of what they want. Sending them here can help us narrow down their "style" preferences. With over 70 styles to chose from, versus the millions out there you may find, it helps us focus on other more important issues about your site. You may like the "look" of one but the "functionality" of another. That being stated, you happened to come to the best place you could for advice.
Aside from the templates, everyone here is always eager to help other members. For instance, many of us get these templates and tear them apart every month to learn them inside and out. It generally takes "me" a month or two (after release) before I will agree to use an RT template. There's almost always an update or two that may change things a bit. That's for "MY" comfort level, not yours. In the long run, that benefits you if I use an RT product vs. a "pre-fab" from someone else.
As to comparing what type site you get for your money: I consider EVERY site I build a "Lamborghini" regardless of how much my client pays. Whether a one page site or a complicated, interactive site, my work is my reputation. I would never put sub-standard work out there. Period!
I don't charge based on the style. I charge based on the complexity of what the client wants and whether I will have to outsource and/or consult with other professionals for some of the work.
You'll need to get with someone to actually spell out your needs. No one here can give you an estimate without a great number of details necessary to determine what your site would cost.
If the truth be known, it all depends on the experience level of the designer, the time involved, and ultimately, how hungry the developer is at the moment you consult with them. I hope that helps you make a decision.
This concludes our first site consultation. The first one was "on the house." {{giggle}}
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