People being ignored...
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- Gene Page
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- www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=68..._v=viewtopic#p931601
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- DanG
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Gene Page wrote:
We NEVER ignore anybody on this forum. It's just a matter of hundreds of posts per day being handled by just over a dozen moderators equates to some posts getting missed. Our responsibility is not only answering your questions but writing guides, creating bug tickets and debugging Rockettheme products.
So to say that we purposefully ignore people is not very polite.
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- David Goode
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Hi Gene,
As the moderators are spread across different time zones we do try to provide prompt and effective support. We recognise that there are occassions when posts get overlooked so we use a list of unanswered posts to try and capture as many as possible. When members 'bump' their own post with a second reply they take themselves out of our list
If members need to provide further information then they should edit their original post to prevent taking it out of the queue.
As Dan says, we never knowingly ignore someone. That doesn't seem to mean much to some people who appear to think we are here as their own personal helpdesk who should be responding instantly to any of their posts.
I think if you look at some of the posts (and we respond to around 4,000 per month) you will see that technically they are not all problems but a lot are people requesting help with minor customisation tasks, or trying to find where to change things. We help where we can with these requests. When there are actual problems with the templates we get these resolved as quickly as we can, often providing temporary fixes while the downloads are all upgraded.
We also get a lot of questions about 3rd party conflicts which we also try to help where we can. Quite a number of the problems that occur often turn out to be caused by poorly set up servers on cheap hosting accounts.
But please be aware that your subscription allows you to use templates in accordance with the terms laid down in your membership. Support is not part of that. We provide it for free. Here is what you signed up to in the Terms of Service
Support:
RocketTheme offers these templates and designs "as is", with no implied meaning that they will function exactly as you wish or with all 3rd party components and modules. Further, we offer no support via email or otherwise for installation, customization, administration, etc. A private members-only forum is available to Template Club members. RocketTheme does not commit to monitor these forums, but we reserve the right to respond and answer questions. You acknowledge by your use of the templates that it is at your sole risk, and that you assume full responsibility for all costs associated with all necessary servicing or repairs of any equipment you use in connection with the templates.
I hope that clarifies the situation for you as regards to ignoring people.
Please search forums before posting. Please make sure your post includes the version of the CMS you are using and a link to the problem. Annotations on screenshots can also be helpful to explain problems/goals. Please use the "secure" tab for confidential information
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- Gene Page
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Whatever the motive or reason members are often (*by definition) ignored.
*ignore
verb (used with object), ig·nored, ig·nor·ing.
1. to refrain from noticing or recognizing
Synonyms - overlook, disregard, neglect
I'm not accusing anyone of malice. Given my brevity I can see how this post was taken in offense.
It's nothing personal against any Mod. I think you're all great people and I think you're all very capable.
I absolutely understand and completely sympathize with everything you've identified. Furthermore, I see for myself the workload and issues that everyone in the Mod Squad contends with on this forum. It is my belief that a large number of the threads on this board are initiated by inexperienced joomla users / web designers who perhaps may not fully comprehend the technical documentation.
This ties up resources. I've seen Mods custom code CSS. I've seen Mods answer Joomla core questions. I've seen Mods offer help with integrating brand new 3rd party extensions. Personally, I think all of this is truly great and well intended, but not at the expense of helping those with problems directly related to RT Products.
I've been with RT only a short time, and in that time it has become abundantly apparent that flaws do exist and persist in RT products. Some of these flaws are UI related, some are UX related, and some are just nasty bugs.
That sounds bad, but it is not surprising in the least. Flaws and bugs are to be expected from all template/extension developers on any tier. The difference one might expect is that those top tier developers offer greater support for their products.
And yes, I have been made fully aware of the fact that RocketTheme makes virtually no guarantees or offer of support...
It's been posted so many times I'm beginning to think some of you are proud of the policy.
You're not are you? I mean, we're talking about it, I might as well ask... Are you proud of this language?
"RocketTheme offers these templates and designs "as is"..."
"...we offer no support via email or otherwise for installation, customization, administration, etc."
"RocketTheme does not commit to monitor these forums..."
If so, I recommend displaying it more prominently so potential customers are directly confronted by the callousness it conveys. I know I certainly overlooked most of that before shelling out 300 dollars.
To be fair, I joined RocketTheme because RT is a big name, the templates are always astounding, and Gantry is the most clean, straight-forward and feature-rich framework I've seen. Sure it was a bit more expensive than the other template clubs I've been with ($44 and $74 dollars more to be exact), but I had hoped the benefits would be illuminated by the quality. Should the quality fail, I had hoped it would be supported in the most basic terms.
On that note, let's review the original post in this thread. I searched for an issue I was experiencing with the thinking I may find an instant resolution (ie solved thread). Instead I found two people with the same problem who made a combined 4 posts over a span of nearly 3 weeks with no response from RocketTheme.
It was twenty-one days since FlahDesign first posted his issue with absolutely no response (again, People being ignored).
That is not often the case, I know...
Sadly, however, in the three and a half months I've been here, I've learned a few things which relate to this...
1. People who post Extension Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
2. People who post Template Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
3. There's no way to follow bug cases, so posting over and over again is the only way to get information and/or resolution.
In other words, impolite and misdirected posting is more likely to lead to a response/resolution.
I want to follow the rules. I want to be a part of this community. For $300 a year, I would like a more structured and responsive approach to support.
And just to be clear, as I conclude this unnecessarily lengthy response...
It's not the Mods. It's not the Developers. It's the system...
It might have worked 4 years ago, but I think it's time to re-evaluate how you deliver support or else every Mod post will include the Support TOS. - Show Support for These Requests...
Automatic K2 Tags for RokSprocket ->
www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=16...86380&rb_v=viewtopic
Option for K2 Video instead of Image for RokSprocket (like JoomlaBamboo's ZenTools) ->...
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- David Goode
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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Hi Gene,
Gene Page wrote:Whatever the motive or reason members are often (*by definition) ignored.Not taken in offense but more about not wanting others to read their own meanings into your short post. Ignore implies intention as shown by the definition including the word refrain, which is a conscious act. :cheesy:
*ignore
verb (used with object), ig·nored, ig·nor·ing.
1. to refrain from noticing or recognizing
Synonyms - overlook, disregard, neglect
I'm not accusing anyone of malice. Given my brevity I can see how this post was taken in offense.
Gene Page wrote:It's nothing personal against any Mod. I think you're all great people and I think you're all very capable.Regardless of circumstances the mod team try to help where we can. We also try to treat everyone with the same courtesy.
I absolutely understand and completely sympathize with everything you've identified. Furthermore, I see for myself the workload and issues that everyone in the Mod Squad contends with on this forum. It is my belief that a large number of the threads on this board are initiated by inexperienced joomla users / web designers who perhaps may not fully comprehend the technical documentation.
This ties up resources. I've seen Mods custom code CSS. I've seen Mods answer Joomla core questions. I've seen Mods offer help with integrating brand new 3rd party extensions. Personally, I think all of this is truly great and well intended, but not at the expense of helping those with problems directly related to RT Products.
Gene Page wrote:I've been with RT only a short time, and in that time it has become abundantly apparent that flaws do exist and persist in RT products. Some of these flaws are UI related, some are UX related, and some are just nasty bugs.As you say, these things are inevitable and we do try to get fixes out as soon as we can. However, this can be compounded by trying to replicate an issue that only appears on someone's local installation or a poor quality host where we don't get access.
That sounds bad, but it is not surprising in the least. Flaws and bugs are to be expected from all template/extension developers on any tier. The difference one might expect is that those top tier developers offer greater support for their products.
Gene Page wrote:And yes, I have been made fully aware of the fact that RocketTheme makes virtually no guarantees or offer of support...Those are the terms and they are available via a link when signing up. This is the same as most online transactions in any sector of business. We recognise that they seem quite harsh but to soften them down would mean creating a document with so many exclusions that it would be seem like a typical insurance agreement.
It's been posted so many times I'm beginning to think some of you are proud of the policy.
You're not are you? I mean, we're talking about it, I might as well ask... Are you proud of this language?
"RocketTheme offers these templates and designs "as is"..."
"...we offer no support via email or otherwise for installation, customization, administration, etc."
"RocketTheme does not commit to monitor these forums..."
If so, I recommend displaying it more prominently so potential customers are directly confronted by the callousness it conveys. I know I certainly overlooked most of that before shelling out 300 dollars.
Gene Page wrote:To be fair, I joined RocketTheme because RT is a big name, the templates are always astounding, and Gantry is the most clean, straight-forward and feature-rich framework I've seen. Sure it was a bit more expensive than the other template clubs I've been with ($44 and $74 dollars more to be exact), but I had hoped the benefits would be illuminated by the quality. Should the quality fail, I had hoped it would be supported in the most basic terms.And most of the time that is what members get regardless of our TOS.
Gene Page wrote:On that note, let's review the original post in this thread. I searched for an issue I was experiencing with the thinking I may find an instant resolution (ie solved thread). Instead I found two people with the same problem who made a combined 4 posts over a span of nearly 3 weeks with no response from RocketTheme.For the benefit of others who read this post I will reiterate the point that people who bump their own posts are effectively hiding their posts from us. We have over 45,000 members, and if you bear in mind the number of separate forum boards we have, then I think you can understand why we use the 'unanswered list' as a first response mechanism.
It was twenty-one days since FlahDesign first posted his issue with absolutely no response (again, People being ignored).
Gene Page wrote:That is not often the case, I know...When taken into context with 4,000 plus posts we answer each month I have to say that you are incorrect. Impolite posts do get a reaction but not necessarily a solution, usually because the poster didn't supply sufficient information in the first place. If there is a simple solution to a problem then the mods will answer it, whichever forum it is in. Bear in mind we have seen most things more than once and it is as quick to answer a post and close it down as it is to argue the toss about something.
Sadly, however, in the three and a half months I've been here, I've learned a few things which relate to this...
1. People who post Extension Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
2. People who post Template Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
3. There's no way to follow bug cases, so posting over and over again is the only way to get information and/or resolution.
In other words, impolite and misdirected posting is more likely to lead to a response/resolution.
I view this post as informative for all parties, including existing and new members who can all learn something from it, including RT as member feedback is important.
Gene Page wrote:I want to follow the rules. I want to be a part of this community. For $300 a year, I would like a more structured and responsive approach to support.As a web developer myself I am still of the opinion that a good active community forum is still the right way to go. I use products where they rely on ticket systems and if I haven't had the problem before I cannot find an answer as I have no access to other peoples tickets.
And just to be clear, as I conclude this unnecessarily lengthy response...
It's not the Mods. It's not the Developers. It's the system...
It might have worked 4 years ago, but I think it's time to re-evaluate how you deliver support or else every Mod post will include the Support TOS.
There are also many developers/clubs where they delete and bury posts they don't like. We try to avoid that because we want our members to see we are as transparent as we can be while still getting work done.
Our bug tracking is internal and as I mentioned previously, if we can replicate it we will fix it, if practical. The tracker includes the original forum post link and any updates to the ticket are automatically emailed to the mod, who will then respond on the forum post.
We aim to please as many members as possible but we all now that we will never please all of the members all of the time. :cheesy:
Thanks for your feedback.
Please search forums before posting. Please make sure your post includes the version of the CMS you are using and a link to the problem. Annotations on screenshots can also be helpful to explain problems/goals. Please use the "secure" tab for confidential information
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- Gene Page
- Hero Rocketeer
- Posts: 289
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I've read all this... taken some time to consider it, and I must concede...
Ignore does imply intention.
- Show Support for These Requests...
Automatic K2 Tags for RokSprocket ->
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Option for K2 Video instead of Image for RokSprocket (like JoomlaBamboo's ZenTools) ->...
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- Gene Page
- Hero Rocketeer
- Posts: 289
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David Goode wrote:
Those are the terms and they are available via a link when signing up. This is the same as most online transactions in any sector of business. We recognise that they seem quite harsh but to soften them down would mean creating a document with so many exclusions that it would be seem like a typical insurance agreement.
I'd honestly prefer that. Receiving a clear outline of limited support is in my opinion better than excusing yourselves from any support. I think it would also be better for RT. Even though the document would require maintenance and a keen eye it would comfort those careful few who may not accept the brief and harsh language of your current TOS.
David Goode wrote:For the benefit of others who read this post I will reiterate the point that people who bump their own posts are effectively hiding their posts from us. We have over 45,000 members, and if you bear in mind the number of separate forum boards we have, then I think you can understand why we use the 'unanswered list' as a first response mechanism.
Question: Am I then doing a disservice by posting on another persons thread?
If a bump takes them off the unanswered list, wouldn't then another poster?
Example:
If I create a thread and my title and post perfectly detail the problem...
and someone like myself searches for and discovers my post...
then post themselves something like "I'm having the exact same issue."
Does that take me off the Unanswered List?
Gene Page wrote:That is not often the case, I know...David Goode wrote:
Sadly, however, in the three and a half months I've been here, I've learned a few things which relate to this...
1. People who post Extension Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
2. People who post Template Issues in General Discussion are more likely to get responses.
3. There's no way to follow bug cases, so posting over and over again is the only way to get information and/or resolution.
In other words, impolite and misdirected posting is more likely to lead to a response/resolution.When taken into context with 4,000 plus posts we answer each month I have to say that you are incorrect. Impolite posts do get a reaction but not necessarily a solution, usually because the poster didn't supply sufficient information in the first place. If there is a simple solution to a problem then the mods will answer it, whichever forum it is in. Bear in mind we have seen most things more than once and it is as quick to answer a post and close it down as it is to argue the toss about something.
I view this post as informative for all parties, including existing and new members who can all learn something from it, including RT as member feedback is important.
In the big picture my experience is very limited, but that experience has led me and perhaps many others with similar experience to see this as being accurate, which is why General Discussion does get so many template and extension specific threads.
I do think you're right about just taking it as it comes rather than squabbling over forum navigation.
David Goode wrote:As a web developer myself I am still of the opinion that a good active community forum is still the right way to go. I use products where they rely on ticket systems and if I haven't had the problem before I cannot find an answer as I have no access to other peoples tickets.
I just think there has to be a better way. Saying 100% Message Board OR 100% Ticket System is a bit too absolute, and doesn't allow for new approaches.
David Goode wrote:There are also many developers/clubs where they delete and bury posts they don't like. We try to avoid that because we want our members to see we are as transparent as we can be while still getting work done.
Our bug tracking is internal and as I mentioned previously, if we can replicate it we will fix it, if practical. The tracker includes the original forum post link and any updates to the ticket are automatically emailed to the mod, who will then respond on the forum post.
On that note, a big shout out to Henning. After waiting about 45 days on a bug fix, he whipped up some PHP that fixed my biggest ongoing issue.
David Goode wrote:We aim to please as many members as possible but we all now that we will never please all of the members all of the time. :cheesy:
One more thing... PLEASE RESPOND MORE TO REQUESTS... just so we know you guys are listening.
Thanks for showing the interest.
- Show Support for These Requests...
Automatic K2 Tags for RokSprocket ->
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Option for K2 Video instead of Image for RokSprocket (like JoomlaBamboo's ZenTools) ->...
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- David Goode
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Gene Page wrote:
Question: Am I then doing a disservice by posting on another persons thread?Short answer is YES - The old 'me too' syndrome causes the same problem. This is why I said the 'unanswered list' was the 1st line of response. It is not the only line of response. When we are in the forums answering a question we often take a look to see what new posts are showing and answer what we can there and then.
If a bump takes them off the unanswered list, wouldn't then another poster?
Example:
If I create a thread and my title and post perfectly detail the problem...
and someone like myself searches for and discovers my post...
then post themselves something like "I'm having the exact same issue."
Does that take me off the Unanswered List?
Gene Page wrote:In the big picture my experience is very limited, but that experience has led me and perhaps many others with similar experience to see this as being accurate, which is why General Discussion does get so many template and extension specific threads.In the general discussion just look to see how many posts come from people with expired subscriptions - e.g. no 'active' label.
I do think you're right about just taking it as it comes rather than squabbling over forum navigation.
Gene Page wrote:I just think there has to be a better way. Saying 100% Message Board OR 100% Ticket System is a bit too absolute, and doesn't allow for new approaches.We also have a paid for support option that some members have utilised for customisation or integration issues.
Gene Page wrote:On that note, a big shout out to Henning. After waiting about 45 days on a bug fix, he whipped up some PHP that fixed my biggest ongoing issue.Henning is one of the more experienced and talented mods on the team and he has helped me out on many an occassion.
Gene Page wrote:One more thing... PLEASE RESPOND MORE TO REQUESTS... just so we know you guys are listening.Cheers for now
Thanks for showing the interest.
Please search forums before posting. Please make sure your post includes the version of the CMS you are using and a link to the problem. Annotations on screenshots can also be helpful to explain problems/goals. Please use the "secure" tab for confidential information
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- Corey Anders
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Most responses to this thread seemed to miss the point of this post and instead tried to turn into a semantical argument as to the true meaning of the word "ignore".
Here is the problem:
www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=15...76831&rb_v=viewtopic
And for those of you that ignore posts when someone posts a second reply due to their original post being ignored, shame on you. What do you expect people to do when they post a question and it goes unanswered for four, five, six, seven, ten, twelve fourteen days while their website is down during that time? Well let me tell you what most people do...they post a reply to their initial post to place it back to the top in hopes that someone might see it the second time around. David Goode, you admit that someone posts get missed yet you have no problem punishing people who created the ignored post. Why do you feel a need to punish people for bumping thier post to the top of the list after it has been ignored or missed for several days or weeks? Also, if you are a moderator complaining about there being too many posts to respond to in a reasonable time, why are more moderators not being hired? Are you also complaining to Andy Miller that he is spreading support too thin?
Everyone reading this, if you are having problems getting the support you need from RT, go write a negative review on Yelp and post a complaint on ripoffreport.com. Ripoffreport.com and yelp are quickly becoming the top dogs for reviews of companies. I GUARANTEE that once there are enough bad reviews out there for RT, then Andy Miller will have two choices 1) lose money from all the bad reviews and/or 2) offer better support. Gotta love the free market.
And I will end like I always do with saying that MOST moderators on here are quite knowledgable and very helpful when it comes to "how do I do this" type questions. Most moderators even reply in a timley manner. However, when it is determined that a bug is at play and the problem has to be forwarded to developers, then you are screwed. After I found a bug with RokMiniEvents, a moderator even told me "I cannot tell you when or if it will get fixed by the developers." Talk about a complete lack of professionalism. I'm not blaming the moderator for being honest with me, I blame Andy Miller for running a sloppy company and refusing to provide ETAs on bug fixes. I am a web developer myself and I cann usually ball park a fix fairly accurately. I develop web and desktop applications for a hospital. I wonder how long I could keep my job by not providing ETAs for fixes and then trying to blame others for daring to write a bad review of my sub par support.
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- Corey Anders
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- And I too will back the fact that Henning does indeed rock!
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