Where are the PSDs???Please do not tell me nooooooooo
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
- Thanks: 0
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Brian Tyndall wrote:
RT shouldn't change the tool of their choice, just because of your pure laziness to learn how to use it. It is not that difficult to learn how to use it to make edits to templates.
Now I am getting pissed Brain ru dumb or something(you started it by calling me lazy).
I said RT should not change their tools of choice.
No one is lazy. We are used to working in photoshop and switching to a tool that has different keyboard shortcuts and panels laid out different and some very fundamental difference in the way you do certain basic thing CONFUSES US. When you go back and forth.
You are bloody bigots who are resorting to name calling(by calling me lazy) The audacity you have.
When I clearly stated that RT should never change its tool of choice.
Since you find that highly propesterous how the hell did you expect me or any other photoshop user to change their tools of choice just edit their template.
IS RT GOD or Gods gift to the template world.
Ok I did not want to say this.
but it is pretty obvious that all you RT fans do not know a thing about designing. You people were never an expert in graphic designing and never an expert in anything that is why you people find it ridiculous that we cannot use fireworks.
DUDE we do a lot more than just change TEXT or templates in photoshop. We create graphics from a scratch and layouts from a scratch. We have other work that we do in photoshop.
We live, and breathe photoshop and we depend a lot on our speed to finish our work on time.
I have always mentioned that because of the fundamental differences in the workflow(and not in either of the softwares capacities, both can do the same thing) by the time we learn fireworks. we have to unlearn whatever is in our minds. It is just like reflex action.
Crtl+L is what I do to change the levels. If I do that in firefox my layer dissappear!!!
I dont even know where the layers is in firefox.
The levels at which we work in photoshop is beyond your understanding brain. It is pretty obvious that we do not use photoshop for crop and resize. That can be done even google picasa and even a 10 year old learn to do it any software
Basically RT is for dumb and challenged desingers who are not graphic experts who life do not revolved around graphics and do not use their graphic software for anything more than crop and resize.
I am sorry but that is the message I am getting here. And when they(Brian) listed to poeple like use they get angry.
The biggest point, not everyone owns Adobe web designer suite CS4(or CS3 or 2). Some of use still work on old photoshop versions.
I say this is deceptive because right now we have to go out and buy a fireworks just to edit your templates??
I hear Andy Miller say that his is on the Fireworks advisory boards. What is this some sort of attempt by him to increase the sales of fireworks??
No seems to talking about that.
I can re-create the templates easily in photoshop, but then why am I paying RT. Cant RT just do it for us since a huge number of people use photoshop.
All I get here is illogical arguments. I hate such arguments.
If you had told me "we cannot afford to hire a photoshop desinger it does not work out"(which I wont believe) I would not have got this pissed.
You think you can "own" us(photoshop users) and bully us with such illogical arguments!!!
Dream on.
Again I repeat if there is any sensible person on this board.
Photoshop and fireworks can do the same things.
The same way RT cannot switch to Photoshop as they have been working on fireworks for years(I am not even asking them to) you cannot expect us photoshop users who have been comfortable with photoshop for years to switch.
We do other jobs on photoshop and a we have to deliver it fast. Trying to remember which shortcut goes for which software is going to handicap us and slow our work down
The best solutions
Hire a photoshop desinger and have him convert the PNG to PSD from a scratch or outsource the work to experts who charge really reasonable and could deliver a template to you in 3 days.
That is all or just bid goodbye to us photoshop users.
I am going to write about this arrogance of RT in all the websdesigning and joomla forums I visit.
This is pathetic all RT is trying to do is save money on hiring a dedicated photoshop desinger(or in the case of outsource trying to save the few dollars they might get charged for converting the template from a scratch).
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
- Posts: 9919
- Thanks: 96
- Web Kahuna
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I feel like we've answered this so many times on the forums, but i'll summarize our stance on this and comment on your more inflammatory comments:
Why We use Fireworks over Photoshop
First, Fireworks is the best tool for the job. I have been using Photoshop for over 10 years, and Fireworks since version 1.0. I was an extremely proficient Photoshop user when fireworks came out, but as a web developer, the possibilities of the vector-based-Fireworks over a bitmap-based-Photoshop were obvious from the start. Sure Photoshop had much more features, but as Fireworks evolved over the years, I found I was using Photoshop less and less. Even today we only ever use Photoshop for complex bitmap images where we need brushes, something that Fireworks doesn't really support well. Adobe bought Macromedia and integrated Fireworks into its Creative Suite, because of it's value as a specifically targeted web-design tool, rather than Photoshop's more general abilities. Put simply, we would just not be able to do what we do if we used Photoshop. Sure we could probably do a one off design of equal quality, but then we would have great trouble creating all our style variations, because even today with Photoshop's added vector tools, it's not all vector, it's just a few bits hacked in. All the value-add that Photoshop gives you are on the bitmap side, which is pretty useless if you want to make different style variations. A key feature of Fireworks as a format for a template provider is that the resulting vector-PNG that fireworks creates is fully editable. A source PSD from Photoshop is littered with bitmaps that are not editable at all. You can't adjust them or easily change their color, this is a HUGE issue that few seem to appreciate. Next, Fireworks is cheaper than Photoshop. A lot of people who join RocketTheme have neither product, and the prospect of having to purchase Photoshop could be overwhelming to a huge percentage of our members, Fireworks is a more economical option. Fireworks is easier to learn than Photoshop. I strongly believe this having worked extensively in both. There are quite a few 'design-offs' on the web where a standard design has been created in both Photoshop and Fireworks, and Fireworks always requires less steps and processes, and also creates and 'editable' result, so you can change and adjust it.
Why We don't provide both Fireworks and Photoshop source files
in your original post you state:
Its been 3 years since I worked on fireworks and its a pain to convert Fireworks to Photoshop.
Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. As previously established, we use Fireworks over Photoshop for solid reasons. Now as you well know converting between Fireworks and Photoshop is hard. I hoped that when Fireworks came under the Adobe fold, the integration between the two would become tight. This has just not happened. It probably stems from the underlying differences in architecture as Fireworks is vector with some bitmap stuff on top, and Photoshop is bitmap with some vector bits on top. Anyway, to this day, Photoshop has no import of Fireworks source files. Sure you can import a PNG, but only the flat traditional sense of the PNG, not the Fireworks multi-layered source PNG format. Even when you import as PNG a single layer, none of the vector elements are preserved, they are converted into bitmaps, and are un-editable, rendering them useless for modifications. The only option is to create the entire source file from scratch in Photoshop. We've tried this a few times and basically it's a HUGE undertaking, taking way longer than the original file did to create (because Fireworks is better at this stuff remember), and on top of that, the result never matches exactly the Fireworks original, due to the differences in how things like gamma, dropshadow, bevels, glows, gradients, etc. work in Photoshop. So you can't just drop a a Photoshop edited slice onto a Fireworks produced template, they just don't match. So it's clear you either have to use one or the other, you really can't have both. So based on the first paragraph, we use Fireworks.
Ok, that's sorted, onto some of your comments:
I mean do rocket theme desingers desing on fireworks only. Why don't they hire a photoshop expert to convert the themes to psd.- well i think i've already answered this pretty much. We use Fireworks predominantly and use Photoshop when needed like for some of the backgrounds where we find that the brushes of Photoshop produce superior results. You also have repeated this quote in various forms in your others posts, but i'll reiterate the salient points again. First, it's a HUGE job. Your probably just talking about the one style you want to use, that could take a few hours to a few days. But we often have 10+ styles, and everyone would need to be recreated. Second, we have yet to be able to reproduce our Fireworks design as a PSD that is 100% pixel perfect and matches. If you can do this, i'll gladly hire you to convert every template we do. It has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with quality. If we cannot say with complete conviction that the PSD is identical to the PNG, then we cannot use it. We would have so many issues with people having non-matching images it would not even be funny. If you can let me know of a photoshop designer so skilled that he can create 100% editable, 100% pixel perfect copies of our a Fireworks source PNG as a PSD, please I'm more than willing to listen. We are experts in both, and we've tried, and I can tell you now, it's not possible. You will end up with huge chunks of non-editable bitmaps in your PSD rendering it pretty much useless.
I feel a little deceived though, there is no explicit mention of it anywhere.- This is a valid point. On our old site, we used to have this more clearly stated. When we moved over to our new site, these statements were removed from our Terms of Service, and were never added to the site in general. We will amend this by making it more clear in our FAQs and other pages.
but there is one thing you can easily port graphics from photoshop to fireworks, but not the other way round.- This is not really true, have you tried it? Importing a PSD into Fireworks, or any other 3rd party non-Photoshop app, results in a very different image than the one you were editing in Photoshop. Try it with your own files. If you have anything half-way complex, it will result in a real mess because those other 3rd party applications do not have all the features of Photoshop. How could they create an editable version that looks the same if they are not in fact exactly the same as Photoshop itself, it makes sense when you think about it that way.
There is no way any photoshop user is going be switching between FW and photoshop. Trust me atleast not me.andI am suggesting that RT should hire a photoshop designer who can do that.andI have spent years and years of tutorials(time and money) of photoshop and now the last thing I want to do is learn how to do something that will only be helpful in this site.etc.
- Like I said, earlier, all the designers here at RocketTheme came from a Photoshop background, but have found overtime that Fireworks is just better for what we do. I remember when Kevin struggled a little with Fireworks at the start, but now he loves it. Also Dustin, who's our highly-skilled, internationally renowned designer who has been responsible for all our designs in the past year or so, was a 100% Photoshop user when we hired him. We explained why we used Fireworks, showed him some of our source files and let him dissect and play with them, and after a few weeks, he was rarely even opened up Photoshop. He LOVES fireworks now because of how easy it is to edit and modify your work as your are creating it. In Photoshop this is a royal pain. Using Fireworks allows us to create designs in a team-like fashion, as we can all edit and tweak things, and then also allows us to create new styles easily and painlessly by just selecting objects and then changing their color properties. No ugly fills, or marquee based adjustments needed!
I hear Andy Miller say that his is on the Fireworks advisory boards. What is this some sort of attempt by him to increase the sales of fireworks??- Ok statements like this are just ridiculous. I was invited to join the Fireworks advisory board because RocketTheme has become a huge resource of Fireworks users. I agreed to join because I wanted to ensure that Fireworks continued to develop and acquire features such as 'better photoshop integration', and other features that our members have been asking for. It's a completely voluntary thing, there are no 'kick-backs', the sole purpose is to ensure that Fireworks (our tool of choice remember) can be as good as it can be.
In short, I think your hung up on Photoshop and your letting that get in the way of your ability to use Fireworks. Anyone familiar with Photoshop or any other editing tool will find Fireworks very easy to use if you give it just a little time. I'm not talking years, months, or even weeks. A couple of days or so of really trying to use it, and it will just 'click', i promise you. Of course key mapping is not going to be the same, and until you get used to the two, use the mouse
Changing something as simple as a color of an object will take you seconds in Fireworks, it really is much easier for this kind of thing. If Photoshop really was easier and better at this, trust me we'd be using it. We have no great loyalty to Fireworks itself by the way, if something came out that was Free, was easier to use, and had all the features we know and love from Fireworks, we'd gladly use that. Alas, there's nothing else out there right now that is better for the creating editable web template designs, not even Photoshop.
I don't think anything further in this thread will particularly useful to the conversation, and because this type of thread has been asked and answered many times, I'm closing it.
Cheers.
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