Another thread about PSD, I have understood all the points
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
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Well Andy miller and all other I have understood all your point.
In the thread you locked down, there was a very big transformation in my stance against PNG. But you refused to acknowledge that and that is why I have opened this thread.
First of all I buy a template to make my life easier and not difficult(that is try to learn another software)
After I buy a 300$ developers membersship(I am on the 2 month plan I was going to test it and then go in for the developers version) you expect me to pay 299$ (the cost of fireworks) to actually use that membership
Or are you suggesting I use a pirated version.
How can you find that rational.
So basically your Developer membership costs 599$ and not 300$. You should also include fireworks package in it(and give a discount since your so hellbent on forcing us to use it and actually leave photoshop in favour of that)
Second thing you should also include some tutorial.
I have spend around 500$ in photoshop tutorials to learn how to do the things I do now(much more in monthly membership over the years in photoshop tutorial sites)
So how much does your Developer membership cost.
LET ME MAKE ONE THING CLEAR.
I started off on fireworks in my initial days and was working on it until I moved out the company and moved to photoshop.
After 5 years or so (approximately 4 years ago) I worked on fireworks while using photoshop.
I had to offer a simple 3D solutions for Stage design(for an event management company). It had to be a rough cubes and cylinder design and had downloaded a trial version to see if adobe had upgraded fireworks or had made it better. I saw that the vector graphics had only gotten better(I agree its the best in that field and photoshop can never compete with fireworks) and saw they had 3d Cubes. Cylinders.
So I thought this could be a cheap solutions(that using 3Dmax) and it worked fine I did around 4 designs to get their approval and their(event management) clients loved it. But during that time I struggled like hell when I would get back to photoshop. And would get all confused with the shortcuts keys.
I had to refer the client to a another designer who was using fireworks and dreamweaver to design websites and had to give him a tutorial on how to use fireworks to achieve the same(you see a fireworks user did not know what fireworks could do and I am had to teach so its not like I am hung up)
So the only reason why I am "hung up" on photoshop is because I work on photoshop. Honestly even though I think your templates are the best in the industry(that is why I took a 2 month account without even thinking) there are other template companies who design templates that are totally different from yours. I am looking at one and already see some sites that can be done in those templates(I have not found a template in your archives that can be used for the same)
My idea of using a template(Seriously I am only telling you this so that you understand how your potential customers work and see if you can cater to their(my) needs also)
Nowadays client need to look at 3 designs and choose 1 and then suggest a few changes.
So I have found that the regular way of working(which I had never adopted and even lost a few clients I analyse their business their content and decide the best way to present it and see the website is functional. The colors matching with their logo etc and any special colors like for a hospital) does not work anymore.
That is show 1 good design and two bad designs and obviously the clients goes for the good one.
But now they have all become smart. Since I do not like taking my clients for a ride I thought the best way would be to use templates and show them 3 good designs.
My aim is to have 3 developer membership in 3 different templates sites(one of them which WAS rockettheme).
So that I have a large selection of templates.
Now before showing the client I would like to make quick changes which I am really comfortable in photoshop(even though fireworks is better like you say but please treat me as a lesser mortal and pity me)
The limitations I have is time. I am not starting a new business. I already have a running business and I am catering to clients I need to finish 3 sites in the next 15 days
That is why i turned to templates and to your site. to churn up 9 designs quickly.
But now you tell me that I have to learn fireworks. When do I do that. Know its easy.
I have used it before(I loved the dreamweaver integration, but who uses dreamweaver with joomla when notepad is sufficient, so that is not really a strong point for anyone who uses joomla)
Like I said I need to use templates and i will be using templates for static sites too. And everyone else in the world supplies PSD templates.
My idea of using templates is to do more sites in less time. I am an expert in photoshop and can edit those templates easily and give it good variation.
But here you are telling me to use Fireworks, which I cannot use with any other website in world wide web.
(again disclaimer no i am not saying firework is bad that why no one is using it, I am not being sarcastic. your desings are proof that fireworks can do magic)
The main problem is for all those sites I will have to use photoshop and I am going to be fumbling when using both softwares.
Have you heard the phrase "Jack of all trades and master of none" Right now I am master in photoshop(not the best in the world but mastered it enough for me to do whatever work I do and to do it fast) if I try to use fireworks simultaneously then i not going be proficient in both.
If my world revolved around Rockettheme then I would have gladly switched to Fireworks. But it does not I still design static sites(for which I am planning to use templates and they are PSD) and also am looking towards using Drupal( have got inquiries and am thinking of going the template way for that)
Oh and then there is Magento. Magento templating is really tough. and trust me there is not magento templates out there with fireworks PNG sources. And magento is very good in functionality and I would like only conquer that aspect. The design I would leave to templates.
So if I switch to fireworks I cannot do all those things. I hope you agree that fireworks cannot edit photoshop templates well(if not at all). For argument sake even here fireworks is better when you open a photoshop file in fire works you do not get all the effects and stuff but the appearance is retained and all the styles effects are rendered properly(infact I used to design in photoshop open it in fireworks and then convert it to dreamweaver in my initial days until I learnt how to hand code and later or use slices in photoshop)
So I end my long rant here. And give you my points.
I used a plugin and converted the png into photoshop(affinity) I see half of it was fine and the other half I had to work. Like the menu lost its original look and the images of the slide were looking wierd(which we would change anyway and changing that just takes seconds). I think if in 3 days I could get the exact same PNG in photoshop(much faster I knew how it was created in fireworks),
I can see it happening.
But like I said I do not have the time to do it.
I would reiterate my main points being that I need to be fast in photoshop as I will be using other templates like magento and static templates(and also I am not going pay 299$ for fireworks)
And then the entire concept of using templates that is do more websites in less time)
So all I am asking is cannot RT spend 3 days after they develop a template and also supply a photoshop PSD with it.
So are you telling me to go home. I am not asking you for a refund. I actually took this two month plan with the idea of losing it if RT does not work for me.
But I am saying don't think that you can have us "hungup" photoshop users as your customers if you spend a week or even 15 days and convert(re-create) the template in PSD.(not with your regular staff but with someone specially hired for this) for use lesser mortals??
The entire world is using Photoshop that is the only reason I am using it too.
I feel deceived that this was no explicitely mentioned in any of the RT pages or while signing up for an account.
It is pretty obvious that you have had people raising this issue. Since you are so damn arrogant and stubborn about this. I think it would be fair enough for you to put a disclaimer.
I would not expect a disclaimer if I was the first person(or one of the first) to raise the issue.
But this issue has been discussed to death here.
RT knows this and RT also knows that there have been many people who have come here and raise a ruckus regarding this.
Many must have got converted to fireworks, but I am damn sure there were not any good or addicted to photoshop(or hung up if you may).
I think it is fair you mentioned it explicitly or put a disclaimer.
After reading your arrogant responses. I will be honest with you . I have an axe to grind with rockettheme.
I feel decieved and I will make this issue public. I have copy pasted all the thread regarding this and time or not time I will see that every knows that if you want to join Rocket theme. Get ready to shell out 299$ for Fireworks and also keep a month or two to get familiar with fireworks and then a year or YEARS!! to reach the level at where you were in photoshop.
Because you have to stop using photoshop or you will be fumbling with keyboard shortcuts when switching between the two.
I had spoken to katrin on chat and by looking at her work and her good words about this community i joined Rocketheme. The fact that all of a sudden this "good" community becomes arrogant when you mention PSD(reminds of movies where in African jungles the tribes are nice to you and you say the "sacred word" or mention something taboo and they say PLEASE LEAVE and even ready to escort you out of their village)
I am wondering why katrin never mentioned the PNG issue I would have remembered it.(Cannot really blame someone who has been working on fireworks all their life, but moderators should remember such issues)
I just find that everyone here conveniently forgets this.
I searched the entire forum for PSD and PSD source and found nothing.
I think RT and this forum moderates even delete any old post regarding this issue. That is why I never found anything
The post I was redirected too also was recent.
I think RT is deliberately hiding the fact and then when we sign we have all the mods and Faithful members arguing their case and trying to convince use.
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- damo
- Elite Rocketeer
- Posts: 2142
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I'm not reading all of this, sorry, but I think I get what you are saying.
But when you signed up to the club, what part of:Access to Adobe Fireworks PNG sourcesdid you not understand on this page:
www.rockettheme.com/joomla-club-details - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
- Thanks: 0
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damo wrote:
I'm not reading all of this, sorry, but I think I get what you are saying.
But when you signed up to the club, what part of:Access to Adobe Fireworks PNG sourcesdid you not understand on this page:
www.rockettheme.com/joomla-club-details
That is why I am not Suing RT
. I assumed. i did not check and infact I never read the line.
I just saw the templates then spoke to katrin on the chat and totally forgot to ask what format the sources.
Or rather it is ONLY in PNG.
There are PSD only template sites that also release PNG. But now many have stopped.
If I am not wrong I think I remember seeing a Joomla template site that released PNGs in the forums. They had a section in forums where they kept releasing updates.
But I never thought you people felt so strongly. All I am saying is that if you feel so strongly for PNG(fireworks) and if this issue has been beaten to death.
I think
You should have added NO PSDS in bold after that line which you just quoted
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
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One more thing some body on the forum was actually trying convince somebody else that Rockettheme is doing us a favour by releasing the PNG templates(I think the word he used was "out of good heartedness or Good will" not sure). That is ridiculous.
I can assure there is no paid templates site that will not release the source along with its template. bet is joomla or static sites.
So you see whats going on here.
Seriously now on second that that is again deceptive.
It sounds like access to Fireworks PNG as an add-on(if you want to argue)
Because anyone would say that a template site has to release the source or else there is not point of the template.
So adding access to fireworks PNG seems like an extra feature.
I think aleast the word "Only" should be there as that would make the picture clearer
We provide only Fireworks PNGs
I remember on of the template sites I was talking about(was a static template site) had highlighted in their features "We have PNG sources for most of our templates"
Among other things like Commented css files.
But not mention of PSD because PSD was the main thing. The generated HTML, commented CSS and the Fireworks sources were extra features.
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
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Just wanted to add thats why I used the words Deceptive.
I did not say fraud or illegal.
Since this issue has been beated to death and it does not look like you are ever going even consider release a PSD(re-created source like I had suggested, hiring a dedicated photoshop expert just to do that)
You should atleast add the word ONLY in there.
We are wrong to assume
It would not be deceptive if I was the first person asking for a PSD or one of the first person
But from you "ready" responses it is pretty clear that you people have experience in responding to Low life photoshop users like me, I think you should be CLEARLY mentioning it in your Membership Page
That is the only reason why it is deceptive
And it is a generally accepted fact that most of the world and templates sites give out PSD and expect PSD or think PSD when you say source.
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
- Posts: 9919
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- Web Kahuna
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I think you did not read the last post i made thoroughly enough. You keep restating the same things again and again, all of these i've already answered clearly.
You are working under the illusion that Photoshop is the only platform anyone should develop in. We have plenty of people asking about GIMP too, even some about Xara, i'm sure a few people would love to have MS Paint be the platform of choice. Photoshop is very popular sure, but just because you happen to already have it doesn't mean that everyone does.
BTW, most full time web developers have the full Adobe CS web suite, and Fireworks is already included in that, the price is really not that much different than standalone Photoshop, something to think about. Also, although this has come up a few times, asking about PSD etc, the number of people with a real issue with Fireworks is very small considering the thousands of satisfied RT members we have.
If you are unhappy with using and having to purchase Fireworks. No problem, send an email to support, and we'll gladly refund your payment, and cancel your account.
One more thing, I really take offense to this "arrogant and stubborn" claim you are making. I've made one reply to your post, i clearly outlined why we have made the decisions we have. You think your raising some new ideas, but trust me, we have evaluated all of these ideas in very great detail many times before. If there was some magical bullet that would solve this problem, I would love to know about it, but so far all the suggestions you have mentioned, we've already considered and had to pass on for the reasons i've already gone into detail on. It's not about being stubborn, or about being arrogant, it's about the best solution for the problem. Right now, today, there is just no way to get a 100% editable, 100% pixel perfect copy of the PNG as a PSD. That's the long short of it. Until that day, we will not be able to offer PSDs. No matter what you think you've done, no matter what people tell you, I guarantee, that getting a 100% pixel perfect PSD that you can edit as freely as you can a PNG is just not going to happen. I say again, if someone can do it and prove me wrong, i'll gladly hire them and pay them to convert our future designs into PSD. We're a bunch of Fireworks and Photoshop experts at RocketTheme, we've done many, many, many designs, and we've never been able to accomplish this.
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- Emma griffith
- Hero Rocketeer
- Posts: 465
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Yes Photoshop is really popular yes pretty much all other clubs offer psd's but the level of RT themes is above and beyond any club template you will find out there.
It boils down to this rawraj, Photoshop has it's place but when it comes to designing templates for example it is better suited to the job, it has been made in many ways with web design in mind.
You say you cannot learn another resource as it confuses you, come on. I grew up in DOS times on BBS services and Linux, still today (although I hardly see a DOS prompt any more) I could go from DOS to Linux; completely different command sets.
I started out using Corel loved Corel hated Illustrator, now I use Illustrator I can still use Corel, personally I hate Fireworks not because it is no good but because I never used it, yes I could do changes far easier in Photoshop but I am persisting with Fireworks.
I do a fair bit of general paper design business cards etc, my good friend who is a typesetter gives me a hard time about doing the whole layup in Illustrator and not taking advantage of inDesign yes you can do the same thing in Illustrator but inDesign is built for laying up work.
You have to evolve your skill set or you are left behind, I am sure in another year I will wonder why I did hate Fireworks so much, I can see how it is better and sure I don't have great amounts of time I can dedicate to learning something new but I understand that I need to take the time to learn this program that at the end of the day is better suited to the task in hand.
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
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Well I have no time for arguments. If you feel that it is not possible to convert a PNG to pixel(re-create) it then I am sure you would have tried.
But then it again boils down to "opinions"
The same way you say that just because I have photoshop does not mean everyone does.
I can also(for argument purposes) say that if you cannot do it does not mean everyone else cannot do it.
Well I have taken this membership and already gone ahead with a template without bothering to check if there are PSD sources.
Well its my mistake
So Now I have a job to finish
Any how I am not arguing anymore on this issue but just having a normal discussion with emma below and explaining to her what exactly I feel is my problem.
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- rawraj
- Sr. Rocketeer
- Posts: 189
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Emma griffith wrote:
You have to evolve your skill set or you are left behind, I am sure in another year I will wonder why I did hate Fireworks so much, I can see how it is better and sure I don't have great amounts of time I can dedicate to learning something new but I understand that I need to take the time to learn this program that at the end of the day is better suited to the task in hand.
Actually Emma when i was a fireworks user, I "evolved" to photoshop. Thats why maybe for me this is like devolvement, you know going back to fireworks.
Fireworks is very good for webdesign and layout but when it comes to image manipulation,(especially raw image processing) fireworks is nothing in front of photoshop.
And that I could do in fireworks in those days, everybody could do on photoshop. So I "evolved" to photoshop or else my designs would be limited.
During my "evolutions"(that sounds funny
) I used to always come back to fireworks to do certain things I knew I could do so well in fireworks.
There was a time when I was using both fireworks and photoshop image manipulations and CMYK conversion(thats another area fireworks is hopeless at and all of this very important when you creating a brand identity package and the logo is desinged by someone else and you have to maintain the same look overall)
But then I learnt how do almost everything in photoshop.
Still i would miss fireworks but then I learnt how to create great desings without those "features" i could do in fireworks.
With rocket theme what is happening is the "features" which I still miss they use those "features" and create magic. They do not need the strong points of photoshop to create the amazing designs they do.
Its the same with coreldraw there are some features in that cannot be matched by any other software.
A coreldraw user also can create great webdesigns(God bless those who have the job of converting cdr to html).
But you see it is just a preference.
What I still feel is (I said i am not arguing anymore about this so trust I am just sharing my thoughts). I thought RT could provide a PSD also but with a few features missing. Like when I trying to switch to photoshop I would do some stuff in firework and then render it as high quality png(the exact size I need) and just get it into photoshop and use it. I cannot edit that in photoshop
After a little thinking I know I am wrong because I am even though I am willing to compromise with a few rasterised effects I think RT might have many photoshop users finding faults in their PSD(saying that few things are not editable).
Coming to the point Emma I am not willing to switch over to fireworks becuase i do not want to lose my speed. It is not like BBS and Linux. Those are commands. You will never find me typing dos commands in linux.
But when you are used to using certain shortcuts in photoshop and you have fireworks open its a pain.
I use coreldraw too and only ctrl+E.(I have ad agencies giving me weird resolutions jpegs and psd that have been exported from corel)
And that never confuses me. I have told them(corelguys) a 100 times design on 3000pixel width so that when I export it to 72 dpi I get a width of 720 pixels(the width of the newletter we are designing) but they just do not get it. Because in corel the actual pixel size never mattered in printing/ They always take care of that later and the quality is not affected somehow in corel.
But here CTRL 1 was a viewing option in fireworks and in Photoshop it did nothing(it actually is composite channel view and when i have switched off a channel and instead of changing the view options all my channels would be displayed) It was so frustrating. This is only one of the things i remember(I think now Photoshop has changed the ctrl-1 in CS4 and think they are trying have similar shortcuts for both fireworks and photoshop)
Right now my outsburst was due the the lack of time.
But there was a time when I used to download the new release of fireworks to see if they included any photoshop features. It has improved but it was still too different to go back to.
You spoke about illustrator and idesign I agree with you.
But then if your friend is creating the logo in Illustrators then I think she is just saving her time and not using indesign because indesign is a layout only tool. It is only where there is a dedicated person to work only on layout like in magazines indesign is used.
The vectors are created in illustrator or corel by someone else. The images are manipulated in photoshop and then all are imported in indesign and the layout is created.
I remember I never go around to learning corel or illustrator even though i wanted to and till today i outsource my work when I need to create some custom vectors.
But i was able to do a lot of that in fireworks and that is where it stands out. but then again what you can do in illustrator you cannot do in fireworks. But I have seen some people who have used fireworks in place of illustrator and got good results. I think it is their creativity and how they can create magic with limited options.
I was always praying for a merger of photoshop and fireworks and the day that happens I would dump photoshop.
I have to disagree with you on thisEmma griffith wrote:Photoshop has it's place but when it comes to designing templates for example it is better suited to the job, it has been made in many ways with web design in mind.In fact fireworks was designed with web design in mind. Fireworks could also do vector and image manipulation that was just enough to create a good layout. The idea was if you needed advanced vectors or image manipulation you went to illustrator and photoshop respectively.
I think that is the reason why Fireworks and photoshop never merged. I think adobe will never make fireworks do everything photoshop can do or else they cannot sell the suite.
The sheer power of photoshop also made it do almost everything fireworks can do, but you needed to be a real expert in photoshop to do all
The point is that when you go so far in photoshop to do what you can do in fireworks, I think coming back is evolving its devolving.
Adobe macromedia merger(or acquisition rather) did not do for webdesigner what it was supposed to do.
That is take fireworks and add all the lacking features of photoshop in it.
It was the dream software that never was created. That coupled with fantastic integration of fireworks with dreamweaver would have been a dream combination.
But then again that would have been a dream come true around 3-4 years back. Now with joomla there is no use for dreamweaver.
With css and divs too there is not use for dreamweaver. In the days of tables it was faster, but now if you know your way well with css and html creating tableless desing is not a big deal in a php editor(which also supports html)
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