Gantry 5 user unfriendly
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- Deb Williams
- Elite Rocketeer
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This may be wishful thinking:
Could a simple solution for new templates be to use only module positions so that everything can be easily edited in the front end... but somehow leave particles for developers to later add to the templates?
(Until front-end editing—with an html editor—is in place, I think Rocket should temporarily suspend creating new G5 templates.)
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- David Goode
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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- Web Designer and Host
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Hi Arend,
We at RocketTheme will always defend where feel we are right. However, we also listen, and as a result of member feedback a few years back we developed Gantry 5. We also introduced the option of buying single templates for a lifetime fee because members wanted ongoing access and updates for the one template they have used.
As I have said, and will repeatedly say, you can still use all of the Gantry 5 templates as if you were using a Gantry 4 template. You can still create content solely from articles and extensions in module positions and don't use a single particle. They can happily edit article and modules with their preferred text-editor without the need to understand any html or css (or SCSS, YAML, LESS etc.).
Even the outline overrides with their image selectors, colour pickers and default settings, are not very different from the Gantry 4 template overrides. Gantry 5 DOES take some learning. In fact Brian agreed it was very flexible for developers but he overlooked that the choice of what elements to use, such as articles and modules, were down to the user. www.rockettheme.com/forum/general-discus...mped?start=0#1202334
While I agree with the comments that Gantry 5 is not intuitive, it is very functional. If you build websites for people and charge them for that then you owe them a duty of care to learn about the products you are using. That is no different to any other service provider.
The people who have the toughest task are those who are building their own website or for an organisation. The one off user will find it hard unless they watch the videos or read the documentation, unless they are really lucky and our demo suits their needs almost to the letter. Even then it will still be confusing because Gantry 5 now has such flexibility you can achieve the same outcome by a variety of methods, none wrong but all different.
Gantry 5 is being continuously developed based on member feedback, market needs, and functionality. I can tell you now that we will continue to move forwards rather than go backwards because that is the right thing to do. Hopefully we will be able to improve on user interfaces and functions as we progress.
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- Brian Shea
- Sr. Rocketeer
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oh goodness. Suspending progress is never a good option.
However... having a 'simple/advanced' toggle switch would go a long way.
Simple?
How about hiding all the 'extension-like' particles? Yes, I know I can turn them off, but having them there in the first place is confusing for people that are never going to use them.
What would I want in 'simple' layout? Maybe the same stuff that was in G4.
Branding, copyright, GA, Date, Mobile menu, Social.
All those other things like Grid Content/Statistic, FlexSlider, Accordian, Content Tabs, Info List, Image Grid.... basically all of the whiz-bang cool stuff featured in the demos.
Note: I am talking about clean installs of the templates, and not RocketLauncher. -
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- Brian Shea
- Sr. Rocketeer
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David, increased functionality is great, but only if it's accessible.
You can have the best tools and coding in the world, but if it is only accessible to developers and those that have time to study yet another new framework, then it's not that great.
Again, I offer Google as an example. How often have we seen Apple come out with some great 'new' features for the iphone, yet Android had it years before? Google gets great praises from the geek world, and those that follow their every move, but ask the common person what Google is, and the answer is "search engine".
Does the public know how much Google has given us? No. Because Google doesn't market. They expect the geek fanboys to do the marketing for them. And then they wonder why people are excited when Apple 'invents' a taskbar or a keyboard that is not allCAPS.
RT, please know that I understand the need for the generic framework placed on top of the CMS. And I am looking at Grav, though it is not ready yet for me to use for my clients yet.
Oh... another example of 'geeks out of touch with non-geeks': Gitter.
Wow. Oh, I get it. I'm from the days of Usenet Newsgroups and old fashioned mailing lists. I know they are efficient, but when the world got good forum software like vBulletin, and CMS started to become available, I had no problem transitioning to the common folk way of doing things.
"submit suggestions to make G5 better at Gitter" -- ha ha. Good luck getting non-geeks to join a community of text-coders.
Again, I am not saying RT and other developers are 'wrong'. I am saying you are not connecting with the masses, and this attitude of "well, we are right, deal with it" does not help the cause.
Google's Android is arguably better than iOS, but try to explain that to an iPhone user.
Developers - please try to reconnect with the common man. -
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- David Goode
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Hi Brian,
Brian Shea wrote:oh goodness. Suspending progress is never a good option.
However... having a 'simple/advanced' toggle switch would go a long way.
That sounds like a good option but I was thinking about RocketLaunchers and their content/particles. I am not sure how much help it would be in a clean install.
Brian Shea wrote:Simple?
How about hiding all the 'extension-like' particles? Yes, I know I can turn them off, but having them there in the first place is confusing for people that are never going to use them.
If I have a clean Joomla and load a recent Gantry 5 template and I simply add modules then all I need are the positions so where would I see the particles? Or are you referring to the layouts in the template admin? If you are handing over a completed site, layout wise, then why would they ever see the particles?
Brian Shea wrote:What would I want in 'simple' layout? Maybe the same stuff that was in G4.
Branding, copyright, GA, Date, Mobile menu, Social.
You have these things in the template settings already, along with colour pickers and images for the various sections.
Brian Shea wrote:All those other things like Grid Content/Statistic, FlexSlider, Accordian, Content Tabs, Info List, Image Grid.... basically all of the whiz-bang cool stuff featured in the demos.
Note: I am talking about clean installs of the templates, and not RocketLauncher.
The particles only appear in template admin where we have drag and drop options or if you create a new module and then choose 'Gantry 5 Particle' as your option which then displays everything available for that template. I don't see what benefit there is to hiding them. Even our less experienced members will still want to tinker and see what stuff does. That is how so many of them end up as developers.
My personal opinion is that we need to have far more information about what each particle can do so that users can use the most appropriate particle for the task in hand. I have seen several instances where people are using a mosaic particle when an image-grid would be better for example.
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- Riccardo
- Elite Rocketeer
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To properly address this topic would be useful to define what it's mean by "a normal user*. Because, from what I read in this forum, I have the impression that most people/writers are webmaster (that works in the web business) or however advanced users.
The detachment of the intuitiveness in the new applications, from development side to the end-user (norma user?) aspect/comprehension, has happened since much time. I still remember the countless internal discussions during my 8 years of Ms MVP of the Italian office products. I remember that these criticisms were never supported by technically feasible alternative solutions.
Considered the (scientifically proven) cognitive devolution/relapse of the younger (mentally lazy) generations, every logical and intuitive solution would drag back the IT development in the Middle Ages. I think that among the many computer abortions birthed in this regard, Windows 8 is one of these.
In my opinion, it is now necessary to distinguish the applications in two categories: for professional (business) use and for recreational/superficial (possibly free or low cost) use.
And g5 is not a free drag and drop website builder for *normal* users. -
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- Riccardo Rausch
www.frontpageserver.it
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- David Goode
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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One of my colleagues noticed an article on another site and it made the follwoing comments...
In the early days of my template development I've tested many frameworks like Warp, Gantry, T3 and Helix. My first choice back then was Warp 6, which offered very flexible (for the time...) functionality and features. After that I switched to Helix 2 and Helix 3, which are both very well built frameworks. In the mean time I was reading about Gantry 5 and all the cool stuff that RocketTheme team planned to do with it. I followed the progress and was there when they released it - not literally of course, I was at home, downloaded it and tried to play with it
So far so good...
To be honest I saw it as very complicated and almost instantly dropped it (it didn't seemed like "my framework").
Ouch!
One of my friends, which is hell of a developer (you may know him as JoomFX or just Ivo) was one of the first people to get his hands on Gantry 5 and he was and still is a great contributor to the Gantry 5 community. When I was deciding which will be the best framework to commit my time and efforts to, Ivo (JoomFX) convinced me to give G5 another try.
Sounds promising...
From a user's point of view Gantry 5 is very user friendly, with nice flat UI. It's easy to control all of the basics without the need to know CSS or web development in general. Of course, for changing the design you will need to know at least some basic CSS, and it's a plus to know SCSS (Gantry 5 uses SCSS, which is automatically compiled to CSS). The particles and atoms concept gives the user freedom and a different perspective on how to build the content. As a person who has tried it once and gave it up (which was a clear mistake), I would strongly recommend to give Gantry 5 a try. Start with something easy - install it on a clean Joomla with the default Hydrogen template, play with the options, test the particles and let me know how you feel about it.
Gantry 5 is not ultra-intuitive. It is not going to suit everyone's way of working. It will do everything that Gantry 4 did and a whole lot more besides.
If you want to see the whole story then here is the link .
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- alexvd
- Rocketeer
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Hi David,
That just confirms the points that some of your users are making: that Gantry 5 is great for developers.
Standard users say Gantry 5 is not intuitive and not user friendly and the documentation is not complete.
Dont' tell them they are not right. It's free and valuable feedback.
The way forward may be to keep all advantages of Gantry 5 that the developers added and develop it back into the user friendly software that Gantry 4 was? Including frontend editing etc.
Many thanks,
Alex -
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- David Goode
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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Hi Alex,
By all means keep coming back and saying the same thing time and time again. But to support your argument please define "Standard User", which may be a great trick as I am fairly sure you do not have access to our member list. Even if you did you wouldn't have had the time to conduct a straw poll to see what percentage are developers versus your "standard users".
If you really want to use Gantry 5 as Gantry 4 was used - articles and modules with front end editing then go ahead. Simply don't use the particles. It really is that simple.
With so many people using Gantry 5 now, there is no way we would go backwards. Sure there have been one or two points in the feedback that we think are valid and we will take those and work on them. But I reiterate we will not be going back to Gantry 4.
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- alexvd
- Rocketeer
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Hi David,
That will be great! That's also what I said when I mentioned 'the way forward' (not the way backward).
A pity that you picked up only one or two points in the feedback.
A lack of respect and open mind for critique maybe?
I end the discussion now, it's your piece of cake not mine - I don't get paid for this, I am actually the paying client
All the best,
Alex
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