Expired members get no access to forums
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- CG Icon
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My statement could be taken the wrong way.. sorry if it came across that way. I have no problem with anyone doing whatever it takes to capitalize on an idea or dream. honestly I do not really agree with the original post of this thread.
yes RT is the BMW of joomla theme creators
but that being said;
my point was, that with the explosive popularity that Joom is enjoying, how long before theme clubs are coming out of the woodwork?....how low will they go to do what ever it takes to take their share of the pie. history shows that often the arrogance the top dog is often its un-doing. ( again dont take that personal ) all I was saying is that maybe preperation of how one will react to market pressures should be concidered.
customer service is everything, and while RT states its position clearly, and that is fine, maybe down the road it wont be enough. maybe along with its growth it understands that support of an ever increasing and complex theme and included components it does need to concider that these forums may not be enough.
to stay the same is to fall behind.
IMHO
again to be clear,, I was not attacking RT,, they make the best product out there.... as of today...
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- James Spencer
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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Wait until we release the Rocket Theme Cult with the logo branded on our chests.
- James Spencer / Developer & Support / Hull, UK
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- John Sanchez
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- No no... we have to keep it a secret. It's a secret membership. We can't advertise it on our foreheads.
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
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CG Icon wrote:
My statement could be taken the wrong way.. sorry if it came across that way. I have no problem with anyone doing whatever it takes to capitalize on an idea or dream. honestly I do not really agree with the original post of this thread.
yes RT is the BMW of joomla theme creators
but that being said;
my point was, that with the explosive popularity that Joom is enjoying, how long before theme clubs are coming out of the woodwork?....how low will they go to do what ever it takes to take their share of the pie. history shows that often the arrogance the top dog is often its un-doing. ( again dont take that personal ) all I was saying is that maybe preperation of how one will react to market pressures should be concidered.
customer service is everything, and while RT states its position clearly, and that is fine, maybe down the road it wont be enough. maybe along with its growth it understands that support of an ever increasing and complex theme and included components it does need to concider that these forums may not be enough.
to stay the same is to fall behind.
IMHO
again to be clear,, I was not attacking RT,, they make the best product out there.... as of today...
The problem with this though is that if the team spends their time doing support. They aren't making templates.
If they hire new people solely to do support then that takes money.
Now if people aren't prepared to extend their membership, then they shouldn't expect to get access to the support which would cost RT to maintain (if they did it)
RT would then become a gradually sinking ship, as the support costs grew monthly as new members stopped paying but kept asking for support, but income gradually went down, because people stopped paying because they didn't need a new template (but still used the support).
That isn't an advanced business model by any stretch of the truth.
As Andy pointed out it is like a health club, if you want continued access you need to pay for it.
Imagine if Gyms only required a one time fee and then you got access to the equipment forever. They would be out of business in a few months. No one would renew, ever!
RT would quickly become the same. If you look around, and not even that hard either, you will be able to find pirate RT templates up for download. The 2 main things RT has going for it, and can actually control are
a) Convenience of the templates being here
b) The forums
They are the two things that can't be pirated and why most people renew their membership.
If we opened up the forums to non paying members, then piracy would be tenfold or more and why would anyone ever need to renew, or even join for that matter! Support is free, templates are free why pay?
RT would collapse in a matter of months, if not weeks. The paying community would only be a tiny fraction of people who were willing to give freely to keep RT afloat.
Given threads like this, and how many people get the minimum membership then build 9999 sites in violation of their license agreement, that group of willing givers would be quite small indeed.
If we want RT to survive, we need to pay for it to survive. Sorry but it's the reality. Andy and the team need to eat too!
Yes I know that a lot of the support is provided by members, including myself, but we do it because we want to relieve pressure off the team and help the community. It also helps us in return. I have asked plenty of questions myself.
I know that more happy people = more customers = more money for Andy et.al. = better templates
So I give my time, and my money, to keep the good times rolling!
Andy provides a service, and its a damn cheap one at that. The value for money of RT is phenominal. It's only right that we return some value to Andy to replay the value he has provided to us.
As an aside: I am holding out for my tattoo until the new logo is official.
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- darinb
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Ahhh, since we are having a discussion here...
The real question for me, if I was to put myself in Andy's shoes, is how to broaden the appeal of the club. One issue is that you have people (like me) who are essentially interested in one theme, for one site. Once that theme is chosen all of the ones from months past are of zero value and all of the ones in the future are only of interest to the degree that new features can be retrofitted into the chosen theme. So the practical value of future themes is low.
So how to get me to extend my membership? Here are a few ideas:
1) The current deal where the forums add value to a paid membership is highly worthwhile, especially in the first few months when the site is being set up. I expect this value to drop dramatically once my site stabilizes, though.
Question: What can Rocketteheme do to add value for single template users over the long run?
Problem with current set-up: Past subscribers do not seem to have access to bug fixes for templates they downloaded while members--that doesn't seem right.
2) The subscription rates might need tweaking. For example, RT charges $50 for a three-month trial membership. This is a good deal for single-template users because $35-50 is the going rate for a template--plus with RT you get good forum support. But to convert to a full membership (once you experience how good the support is) is a problem--the official policy is you need to pay $60 (for a total of 3 months+ one year).
This is a disincentive to continue with the club--after all, you are asking a person to pay $110 for what others are paying $75. That's punative. Much better to make it easy to keep with the club on the theory that getting customers is costly--once you have them you want to keep them.
Make an "upgrade" to the full year only $35 ($50 for the test period, $35 for the additional nine months). Still $10 cheaper to join for 12 months but still very easy and tempting to upgrade.
One idea of what RT could do (and maybe is doing, though they seem to be doing it tied to each new template) is to offer custom modules only to subscribers--a version of their login module would be high on my list. That would be something of value to single-template users. Perhaps RT could offer 2 hours of time helping troubleshoot/customize people's sites per year. Whatever--RT should be thinking more carefully about the single template uses (like me!).
Just my random thoughts...
--Darin
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- Daniel Chapman
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You know it's an extension not an upgrade right?
You get 3 months for $50 then another 12 months for $60.
Or you get your first 12 for $75 then your next 12 for $60
You don't lose time. Your first 3 were just more expensive because you chose for them to be that way.
It's not that the 3 months is over priced, it's that the 12 months is under priced to provide incentive to enroll for a full year and not just 3 months.
It's not punitive, it's an incentive and reward for electing to pay for a year instead of 3 months.
This is actually the third time in a thread that people have referred to 'incentives' as if they were the norm, and that they had been somehow punished by not receiving them. (the other two being with pro membership) $50 is the norm. The rest is a bonus. Not the $75 being the norm, and the $50 is a punishment!
However, would an 'upgrade' option be appealing? Where at the end of 3 months you can pay say $30 instead of 60 and you get 9 months extension to bring you in line with those who paid for 1 year up front. (plus $15 to keep the 1 year incentive)
Any other model would then punish people who paid for a year in advance, and reward people for exploiting the system and buying 3 months so they got a cheap '1 year' upgrade.
The real question for me, if I was to put myself in Andy's shoes, is how to broaden the appeal of the club. One issue is that you have people (like me) who are essentially interested in one theme, for one site. Once that theme is chosen all of the ones from months past are of zero value and all of the ones in the future are only of interest to the degree that new features can be retrofitted into the chosen theme. So the practical value of future themes is low.
In which case, as you said yourself, it's the same price as buying a one off template. Except:- You get much better support
- You have the option to change your mind (even if you don't exercise that option it's there which a one off purchase doesn't give)
- Until you decide on a template, you can change and test as many as you like
- You get 3 more templates to choose from which are almost always better than the existing ones
Where is the lack of incentive or appeal? I mean seriously. A club is 10000000* better than a one off purchase for the same price. The only thing missing is free beer and a foot massage (and even then Dave Gee will give you that if you join the Pros.. apparently... Though I am still waiting for mine ;D )
The long term value is not really there for someone who has a static site, and doesn't want to ever upgrade their template you are right. But that certainly isn't a good enough reason to open to forums up and sink the company.
A template club isn't supposed to give long term benefits to those customers. Not everyone needs to buy a prepaid monthly train ticket either. It doesn't mean that the appeal of monthly prepaid tickets needs tweaking.
It doesn't make those customers bad, or the template club bad. It just means they aren't matched for a long term relationship.
One idea of what RT could do (and maybe is doing, though they seem to be doing it tied to each new template) is to offer custom modules only to subscribers--a version of their login module would be high on my list. That would be something of value to single-template users.
At which point RT would get a stream of complaints about how they have been 'tricked' into buying a template which doesn't come with the necessary modules that they need. Or that they don't have access to them.
It's a lot harder to justify why someone can't have access to a static information product as opposed to a service which requires manpower.
Perhaps RT could offer 2 hours of time helping troubleshoot/customize people's sites per year. Whatever--RT should be thinking more carefully about the single template uses (like me!).Ouch, can you imagine the workload for even just a couple of hundred members? And what do they do when the 2 hours is up? Just walkaway with the job half done or finish the job even if it takes ten hours? but then everyone will want ten hours because one person it. or if they walk away halfway through people will be even more unhappy than if they never started! Sorry, but I can't see this working. :-[
I know it was just an off the cuff idea though.
Does RT need to try to provide incentive for these people? They don't really contribute to the community because they don't have enough interest in other sites/templates/modules. Adding incentives for these people will make it harder to attract the people who do want to contribute to the community.
Scary as it is to say. Not everyone needs, or should need to be a lifetime RT member. Some people will need to come, and then go. They are happy, RT is happy, everyone is happy.
Wimbleton hasn't put goals at the end of the tennis courts, and made the players kick the ball around, because they are there to serve tennis fans, not soccer fans.
RT is here to serve longterm site builders with multiple sites, or who want to have variable templates.
It's only when people want more than what they paid for that they get unhappy. It isn't RT's fault they didn't take the time to read the very clear club agreement. Either way, they still get better value for their money than any other club or template purchasing method.
- Last Edit: 18 years 1 day ago by Daniel Chapman.
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RT is here to serve longterm site builders with multiple sites, or who want to have variable templates.all the more reason to offer single template purchase options for both Joomla templates and the handful of SMF templates for the "nonelite" site builders. have a club price and have a single license/single template purchase option and if you can't spare the time to offer support offer a marketplace for regular members (or hell, even just pro members) to offer support and RT can take a kickback.
one thing I've noticed about the Joomla community is that there are some seriously talented designers, developers, and programmers out there. But there are a very small few with good solid business sense.
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- Daniel Chapman
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all the more reason to offer single template purchase options for both Joomla templates and the handful of SMF templates for the "nonelite" site builders. have a club price and have a single license/single template purchase option and if you can't spare the time to offer support offer a marketplace for regular members (or hell, even just pro members) to offer support and RT can take a kickback.
This could be a good idea, except that what price would offer them at?
$50 is the market rate for a one off template, which gets you 3 months worth here.
If you sold them at $20-30 that is so close to the 3 month price you would be crazy not to pay the extra $20 or so for 3 months of options, support and new templates.
I doubt they would even sell unless you offered them at ridiculously low prices like $10 in which case you would lose a fair few of the $50 payers, but you certainly wouldn't gain 5x as many one off buyers.
Then we would also get the one offs complaining that they don't get any support, or access to the forums. :
I wouldn't say that making one offs and a club available at comparable prices is good solid business sense.
one off -custom- templates that are only released as one offs might be saleable but then you have the club members asking what are we paying for exactly again?
The club model is by far the best and most solid model for this type of business. and RT is priced pretty much spot on, or even under priced.
It's far better than one off sales and far more beneficial for all involved, the site and the customers.
EDIT: That being said, one off sales of SMF club templates for say $10 each wouldn't break this model as they aren't a core product.
I am seriously open to hearing some more ideas if you have a better business model and pricing plan. Because I am planning something similar myself. But I will pick it to pieces if I can find a hole in it.
It needs to stand up a lot of scrutiny if it is going to work as business model.
- Last Edit: 18 years 1 day ago by Daniel Chapman.
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- Andy Miller
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- Web Kahuna
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daniel, thanks for really fielding these questions on this thread. You are really spot-on here, and I just want to let you know that I really appreciate it.
I just want to say that overall I think the club model really works and satisfies the most people. There is no one solution that will satisify everyone. I think the way it's configured now is the best balance of quality products, quality support, and value for money. I'm always interested to hear views on how to make rockettheme a better place, so i'm paying close attention to this thread.
cheers,
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