Expired members get no access to forums
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
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Thanks Andy,
That's actually a bit of a relief. I was hoping I wasn't putting the wrong words into your mouth. But that is how I see a template club. ;D
It's a better system than one off purchases in every way.
The major reason these topics start though I think is because Joomla exists in an Open source environment, where so much is free that people get defensive the moment they have to pay for something or don't have 100% access to something.
We take what we 'want things to be like' and talk about them as if they are 'how things should be'
(even I do it, so this is an observation not a judgment
)
The prime example of this is how people don't read the terms and conditions then come to complain that they aren't getting exactly what they want to get. Even though it is not at all what RT offers.
The comments below are purely my own opinion and potentially extreme so I place them as a member who has no association with RT other than as a customer. (so as to not impact RT's reputation):
If people aren't happy with the RT system they are more than able and free (as in free liberty) to start a free (as in free beer) open forum for anyone to discuss templates. Or a free template club, or one off purchase template site. Or any other variation that has been presented here. Instead of trying to re-craft RT to meet their wants.
A forum takes approximately 15 seconds to install into a Joomla site. Go start the 'RT templates former members who still want in but don't want to pay for it forum.'
Or ask Andy to create a new level of membership that is $1000 a year or something and includes full RT support (with a cap on number of sites perhaps)
Or a charter life member - $500 for unlimited lifelong (life of the website/company) access at the Pro level to RT templates. (no extra benefits except an even cooler forum logo than pros.
)
Then people can have their cake, and even eat it too, but for an appropriate price, and not $50.
/end rant
As a side note. I have nothing against former members btw. If you check the thread where the guy who started this one actually asked his question I helped him out with the answer he was after. If they want to post in the general section and hope it doesn't get moved, I will answer their threads the same as any other.
I am just speaking out in defense of a system that works, and works well. -
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- darinb
- Hero Rocketeer
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Oh, I'm just throwing out ideas. But I agree that, as you say, that RT is not well matched to the needs of one-template buyers. That was, in fact, the premise of my post, that there is an area of potential growth in better serving that market niche!
I'm a one-time buyer and am plenty happy to spend $$$ to make my site what I want it to be, though it is a non-profit site so I have to be extra careful with expenses. (Heck, the amount spent on the site is trivial with the amount I spend to produce content!)
Anyone want my money, this year and next?
--Darin
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
- Posts: 1258
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darinb wrote:
Oh, I'm just throwing out ideas. But I agree that, as you say, that RT is not well matched to the needs of one-template buyers. That was, in fact, the premise of my post, that there is an area of potential growth in better serving that market niche!
I agree there -may- be a niche to serve. But what is it that this niche wants? You can probably define it better than me.
They obviously don't want a template club, but what -do- they want?
I am interested to hear it myself. I am always looking new business ideas.
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- darinb
- Hero Rocketeer
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Here's how I break it down:
Two markets: 1) small users, a few sites. 2) Developers, numerous sites.
Small users need:
a) A good selection of quality templates
b) support for setting up their site using a chosen template
Small users won't make good use of:
a) New templates, rules allowing numerous installations, modules that don't apply to their template.
Developers, as I understand it, need:
a) A steady stream of innovative templates and a large pool to draw from
b) A steady stream of new and/or improved modules
c) Support for the more complicated aspects of the templates
d) Rights to install in numerous sites.
So the value for small users is front loaded; the value for pros is more level. This is the key concept.
So maybe what would match the market is a hobbyist level with something like:
a) $50 for the first year/$25 year after. (Front-loading the cost since the value is front-loaded--they are just getting forum support after year 1)
b) You get full access to all historical templates and the next three.
c) You can use RT templates on up to three sites
d) You can use one, two, or three templates of your choice
e) After your introductory three-month period you don't have access to templates anymore (save bug fixes on your chosen templates)
f) You get full forum support during your entire membership.
g) After intro period you can purchase templates at $25 each.
Then there is the pro membership at a much higher price (say $75-100/year). Pros can suggest features they would like.
The key for small users is technical sophistication of the templates--to make this really worthwhile you will need to keep pushing the technical sophistication level of the templates as much as possible and then backing it up with quality forum support--it's the bundle that matters.
Oh, learn a lesson from anti-trust history and apply it to the piracy issue--don't let it drive youir business plan. Stay focused.
Just a few thoughts...
--Darin
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- darinb
- Hero Rocketeer
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Marketing:
"3 templates, 3 sites and 3 months to choose for $50--plus a full year of support for the most innovative templates anywhere."
That would compare well with $35-50 for a single template from other vendors.
--Darin
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- James Spencer
- Preeminent Rocketeer
- Posts: 46340
- Thanks: 50
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I do not believe the template club structure should be changed. It seems to suit almost perfectly. However, for what you are suggesting, it may be an idea to have a few templates available in a Template Shop fashion.
Therefore, you could have the normal template club structure and a separate template shop. In this shop, you could purchase the templates at a one template at a time price. Unfortunately, with that structure, you would not gain access to the support forums.
All the suggestions are all dictated to how easy it would be manage should a new idea. A more extensive price strucuture for different levels of desired membership such as a 1 off month membership just to get your intended template.
However, probably going to contradict myself again here, the prices as they are not high, infact, they are the opposite, really cheap IMO with what products you are getting. $50 for 3months membership is not expensive.
You have some really good ideas there Darin (Ive probably been repeating a few great ideas from you and others) - James Spencer / Developer & Support / Hull, UK
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
- Posts: 1258
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darinb wrote:
"3 templates, 3 sites and 3 months to choose for $50--plus a full year of support for the most innovative templates anywhere."
That would compare well with $35-50 for a single template from other vendors.
I am not sure 'well' is how they would compare. Blown out of the water is better description. ;D But a year for $50 is too long. It's such a tiny price.
a) $50 for the first year/$25 year after. (Front-loading the cost since the value is front-loaded--they are just getting forum support after year 1)
b) You get full access to all historical templates and the next three.
c) You can use RT templates on up to three sites
d) You can use one, two, or three templates of your choice
e) After your introductory three-month period you don't have access to templates anymore (save bug fixes on your chosen templates)
f) You get full forum support during your entire membership.
g) After intro period you can purchase templates at $25 each.
So the $25 continuation membership gets you no access to new templates? But access to the forums? Great idea in theory and I see where you are going. $25 a year for forum (aka support) access. Basically site insurance.
However...
Pros:- It might (will be likely to?) encourage people who wouldn't otherwise renew. = more money for RT
Cons:- Access to the submissions forum would need to be revoked as full templates are often posted there. Or the submissions forum needs an overhaul, and parts of it need to be revoked. (which it does anyway imho)
- It gives the pirates cheap forum access. You get the templates off a warez site for free and then ask for help in the forum for$25 a year
- Should these members only have access to the forums for templates they were a member for?. This requires a lot of group management which would probably have to be done manually. (or require a significant investment to get done). *
- A lot of people who pay the $50 now would downgrade to the $25 = less money for RT
*This means a major investment to make it secure. Would the investment pay itself off? This is also messy because how do we determine which templates they 'selected' as their three? It would mean a custom enrollment procedure for the $25 club where they choose 3 templates.
I am still not convinced this would bring enough money in to warrant the initial investment required to keep it secure.
You say not to let the pirates dictate policy, but nor can you let trust dictate policy either. When people don't -have- to pay they usually don't.
e.g. I have had just over a thousand visitors to nonjoomla since I started it a week ago. (not bad for a week woo) And have a donation system in place. Despite around a thousand downloads of the free modules and CSS, the only donations I have received were specifically for the donationware modules (and a couple for personal reasons). Out of a thousand people not one was willing to share a single dollar for the hours of work I saved them with those modules and CSS/images.
I am not bitter btw, I put them out there knowing that was what would likely happen. But it is a good example.
You can't honestly expect me to believe that people wouldn't exploit this system if it was implemented. Because that is what I see here, a cheap exploit for access to the forums that RT would need to spend a fortune implementing in the first place.
On the other hand I WANT to see it work. It really would provide benefits and open up a new niche if there was a way to prevent the exploiters.
The only way I can see it working, or actually see buying one off templates working full stop is this:
There is no '3 to chose from'. You choose either to be a club member or a one off buyer.
Club members remain as is.
One off members buy a single template, then they are given access to a select group of 'one off buyer' forums (general/announcements/water cooler/FAQ's) and the forum for the specific template they selected. This access is for one year. They can purchase multiple templates, and get access to the correct forums.
They pay a considerable price up front, say $50 for the year. So you chose $50 for 3 months of hell for leather, or $50 for a year on one template only. Then, as you say, subsequent years on the same template are discounted to - $20-$25 or so. This is really insurance you are buying here in the form of forum access.
This could be semi automated depending on the subscription tool they use here. (custom I believe) It would require creating a separate subscription for every template.
A bit scary to start off, but then only needs to be done once a month for each new template. Would become a negligible part of putting up a new template. Less time than those sexy tutorials take.
One off purchases are not transferable. You need to start again at $50 if you want a different template.
Could also be extended to the SMF templates at say $20 then 5-10 for subsequent years. Or even included in the matching on off template purchase!
I can't see any holes in this. The price is right I believe for one off purchases. They still get more benefits than a straight one off purchase site (mainly the access to a lively community) and the price is comparable.
- Pirates can't exploit it.
- Club members don't lose out to one offs
- One offs get what they need and no more, without losing to club members either.
- Niche gets filled.
- No custom and complicated software needed, just a lot of subscription offers. (a bit of work yes I agree but this might actually pay for itself)
I like it. ;D I will probably use it myself actually on my own club when I start it.
This system rewards good behavior, without needing to punish anyone.
Andy we have a recommendation! ;D - Last Edit: 18 years 1 day ago by Daniel Chapman.
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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- Web Kahuna
- The mutliple club things is simply impossible currently. I've ben working on a new version with a developer for the past 3 months. it's possible to implement what you describe although not very practical even with this new version. I'll have to see what I can do when i have the full version.
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- Daniel Chapman
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I do admit it's not particularly practical. But it is the most practical option presented so far. And is really only relevant if you really wanted to access this niche.
It's the least worst so to speak. ;D
But I am still not sure the 1 off purchase niche is really large enough to warrant any change to be honest.
Maybe put up a poll and see who many people want it.
At a guess I would say less than 5% of the community and less than 10% of the visiting customers. A Club is just so much better for the price that it's offered at.
Anyway. I think I am done here unless someone can present a better idea for one off purchases that isn't exploitable, and doesn't leave one part of the customer base feeling like they got a raw deal. -
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- Bob Ateah
- Elite Rocketeer
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Although it's great to discuss new ideas, I feel that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Andy and team do NOT need extra work I am guessing and adding a template shop and managing it may well create a fair amount of extra work for minimal return.
The way that I see it is, $50 for 3 months and a choice of all the templates is very cheap, all things considered. Plus access to forums where the community is actively involved in supporting each other is priceless.
Those that want a single template now have a choice, shop elsewhere and pay $30 - $50 for a single template and good luck with the support for said template, or pay RTTC $50. Pretty simple choice in my humble opinion.
I would like to add that I have perused all the template shops/ clubs and in my humble opinion, none of them come close to the quality of RTTC templates, no where near. As far as I'm concerned, RTTC does not have any legitimate competition, why? Because of Andy, his talents, creativity and understanding of Joomla are second to none.
Cheers! - The member formerly known as Roland Deschain
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