All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
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- Roger Davis
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Okay, here's a solution that defeats the GPL and allows commercial development with absolutely no ambiguity.
Developers should just create a library of generic functions that don't require Joomla to operate. Then encrypt your library. Those functions become the basis for your commercial work, without which your extension won't function. You can use this library for other CMS's, too...since it's a library of generic functions, it doesn't have to be use only within Joomla. It's non-GPL code that can be used in any GPL project.
Then just require the library into whatever GPL'ed PHP files that might be necessary. Like mod_myModule.php is necessary for every module to work. That would be GPL according to Joomla. But the library of generic function calls is not GPL. Those are proprietary code that protects your development time. Obfuscate and encrypt to your heart's content, because there's no way the Joomla GPL can touch a function library developed to be generic.
Easy.
If you think your functions would be too easy to duplicate, then put other, trivial functions into your function library. Like a function that does string replacement. Just call it something else obscure and put it into your function library. You absolutely have the right to do so. Call it something bizarre that doesn't give anyone purusing the open source parts of your code a clue about what your functions actually do. There's nothing in the GPL that says your code has to be clear, just open.
Lock the function library to a particular domain or IP address as copies are sold, and invite users to pass around and modify the open source parts of your code, in congruence with the GPL. Once the open source part of your code is run, it checks for the presence of the library or checks for the correct domain or IP. If not found, then your GPL code pops up a message inviting users to purchase your module.
So, the emphasis on free distribution in the GPL can be turned into an advertising channel for your extension, which won't work without your proprietary library. This lets the GPL go to work advertising your commercial components.
Budda boom, back in business, total compliance with the license. Everyone's happy. Commercial developers actually gain a distribution channel for their proprietary works through the GPL.
Roger - Last Edit: 17 years 10 months ago by Roger Davis.
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- Andy Miller
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
As Daniel stated, a license doesn't default to GPL. If an incompatible license is stated, or no license is stated, then the extension is just in violation of the GPL, and you still don't have the right to assume its now GPL. Take for example a developer that creates a component that uses a proprietary library that is strictly non-gpl compliant. He has released this with a proprietary license. Now with the GPL statement, even though nothing has changed, the developer now realizes he should not of released the component with said license. The problem is he is not able to release the component as-is with a GPL license due to the proprietary license of the library. He needs to address this issue with a new library or whatever, the developer needs to take care of this and you (the user) cannot just assume the whole thing is GPL and start distributing it. You could find yourself in hot water for license violations of the included library.
Anyway just an example.
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- Rick O Banion
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
I don't think this is a bad move for Joomla at all. The problem was, IMHO, there was a big increase in the number of paid components and modules (okay mostly components).
The issue is that they rely on the Joomla core to work. It is proprietary software and unless significant chunks of coding from Joomla are pulled into the component, it won't work.
Templates do not require access to the core pieces, if you will. They just kinda lay over it all. Sure they call to the modules and positions, but this isn't really unique coding on the part of Joomla.
What I can see happening is someone making a GPL connection script, then commercial users tying into that...but that may even not be far enough removed.
It is perhaps only coincidence that this all comes on the heels of Microsoft's weak complaints about proprietary violations in Linux and associated software.
Essentially, people were making money off of the core unique coding of Joomla, which is not at all in the spirit of open source software and is a slippery slope to the commercialization of an OS product. Just look at how incredibly bad the whole OSCommerce situation has become with people repackaging it and selling it off as something commercial.
Those of us using Joomla for web sites, have never sold the software (I Hope) and have only sold our services in implementing and configuring the package.
For me all this means nothing and for the end user all this means nothing. I always used GPL components (with maybe one or two exceptions when I had to purchase components...one of which was encrypted which annoyed me to no end).
Now that Joomla has gone ahead with this, prehaps they can now focus on getting 1.5 finished and getting a standard platform developed for components and modules.
I cannot see why theme creators would need to go with any funky CSS coding. The core CSS of joomla is fairly standard and I wouldn't think unique enough to call proprietary.
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- Roger Davis
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
I have to respectfully disagree, Rick. Commercial proprietary components are out in front of similar GPL components in terms of functionality. Obviously, they have to be if they're going to make money. But the lead of commercial proprietary components is always temporary. Eventually, GPL components catch up, which then drives commercial proprietary developers to refine their product further. Fewer bugs, more feature. Then the GPL guys look at the functionality of the commercial products, and they build that functionality into the GPL stuff.
Commercial proprietary extensions effectively produce a larger and larger pool of great GPL extensions. The commercial proprietary guys are constantly forced to innovate.
So the two approaches don't conflict. They complement each other. Excluding commercial proprietary extensions damages this ecology, and damages Joomla.
If GPL is really better, it if really produces better code and benefits the community more, then it needs to succeed on its own merits, not through the tyranny of its license. It needs to outcompete the commercial proprietary stuff.
Roger
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- drstonyhills
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- Roger Davis
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
People who charge for a Joomla install or to set up sites are okay.
In fact, the effect of the GPL is to move everyone to a service model. Specialists in commercial proprietary web programming are basically forced to invent something they can service.
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- Rick O Banion
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Roger;
I agree with you that money is a decent impetus towards a strong performing product. But I do think that OS has shown , over the long haul, to be just as good (Firefox for example) and better in some instances.
I just think that commercial components of a OS core goes against the spirit of OS.
I'm certainly not against it, I just think it seemed to make the community a bit splintered. I'm not a 17 yr old messing around with a gaming site (no offense to those fitting that description) so a standardized platform is the most important thing to me.
There is nothing to prevent someone from making commercial components. They just would have to make the parts that are using Joomla coding OS. If I only have one or two files that are unique code, all I need to do is have those under my commercial license and the rest under GPL (unless I am totally misunderstanding the GPL requirements.) The OS portion would be fairly useless without the unique files.
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Roger Davis wrote:
Okay, here's a solution that defeats the GPL and allows commercial development with absolutely no ambiguity.
<snip>
Roger
You are correct Roger that defeats it. I actually suggested it to the commercial guys a week ago though.
Significant would be decided by the judge at the time the court case was held. It is not up to a community member to take it upon themselves to decide and start distributing code.
If you are writing code and not sure if you can relase by another license or not -> seek professional legal advice. That is why we have lawyers, to tell us when we might be breaking the law -before- we do it. Not I nor Andy nor the entire Joomla Team could tell you with any accuracy what is and what isn't 'acceptable use' of code and what crosses the line into viral.
@Rick is the proprietry part or the commercial part that you don't like?
Most people who use joomla use it for money making sites, or to charge people money for building sites.
If I have a choice now to a) spend 500 hours working for free to release a component that everyone will then take and not pay me for under GPL to go and earn hundreds or thousands of dollars each off my labours, and give me $0. Or I can just go and spend 500 hours building sites at 30-$60 an hour and earn $15,000-30,000 ... Which are you going to do?
If devs can't make money too then no one except people with a lot of free time will develop anything for Joomla anymore. (thankfully there are GPL ways to make money)
People make money using Joomla, LOTS of people make a LOT of money using Joomla, a dedicated ecommerce website would make more than most of the most of the smaller Development houses. So I don't see what the problem is with people who give you the ability to earn money earning some themselves.
However if you problem is with proprietry code... Then I agree to an axtent. I don't like it myself, but I do see the need for it without a better alternative being made available.
I am in an odd position in this situation, as I support both sides strongly. I love Open source, and I will do my best to never release anything but open source code, (though not necessarily GPL)
But at the same time as a developer in the position that I want to quit my day job and devote myself totally to building extentions for -you- to use that I want to see viable commercial avenues for me to make money other than having a side job which reduces the quality and amount of my code because it reduces the time I have available.
I consider it acceptable for others to encrypt their code if they need to to secure their income. They put the work into writing it they should get the beenfits of that work. Every other industry in the world rewards you for your efforts, but some OS zealots feel that no one who writes code should be rewarded with anything but access to code... That is just crazy talk. People need to eat at the end of the day and have families to support.
Also most commercial developers release GPL components in a 2 to 1 ratio of GPL - commercial so they provide twice the amount of GPL code as commercial. So ANY increase in commercial code is followed by a double increas in GPL releases. Lets take some examples for you
CB - the most popular extension hands down - GPL - funded by other commercial component sales
SOBI2 - the rival directory to mosets - Funded by commercial component sales
Take a good long look at the JED more than 30% of the GPL extensions were produced by commercial groups. including their commercial stuff (about 15%) that si half of the extensions on the JED being the result of these commercial houses you dislike so much. - Last Edit: 17 years 10 months ago by Daniel Chapman.
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Rick O Banion wrote:
Roger;
I agree with you that money is a decent impetus towards a strong performing product. But I do think that OS has shown , over the long haul, to be just as good (Firefox for example) and better in some instances.
I just think that commercial components of a OS core goes against the spirit of OS.
I'm certainly not against it, I just think it seemed to make the community a bit splintered. I'm not a 17 yr old messing around with a gaming site (no offense to those fitting that description) so a standardized platform is the most important thing to me.
There is nothing to prevent someone from making commercial components. They just would have to make the parts that are using Joomla coding OS. If I only have one or two files that are unique code, all I need to do is have those under my commercial license and the rest under GPL (unless I am totally misunderstanding the GPL requirements.) The OS portion would be fairly useless without the unique files.
BTW if you take a good look at most non GPL components, many of them are totally OS and the ones with limited site licenses usually only have a couple of core functions and the license checker encrypted. The rest is open.
Obviously you can't copy their code, but you can still learn from it. I have done it several times myself. Looked at how something was done and then recreated it myself. -
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
As a side note Rick, you build Joomla sites right?
How many GPL extensions have you released personally?
How much code have you taken from the pool -for free- and how much have you returned to the pool to pay back what you took? -
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