All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
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- Rick O Banion
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Daniel;
It is the proprietary part. I have no issues with the commercial aspect aside from the technical basis than it uses code that is not the property of the component maker and then bundles it as part of its own protected software.
Like I said, they likely need to make the components in two parts...the Joomla coded portion as OS and the unique code as their package.
As web developers we would all likely object to someone renaming Joomla and selling it as something else.
Unfortunately I think that the Joomla core team was backed into a corner of either being GPL or not.
Again I point to the OSCommerce mess as an example of what happens when the original plan is not followed through to completion.
Charging money for services is one thing, but selling GPL code is another altogether.
There is nothing in this to stop people from creating and charging for custom components. It is the persons time you pay for and not the codes.
Joomla gets a donation from each site we make in the name of the site owner. Always has and always will. I could not make a component if my life depended on it.
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
But in a GPL envrionemtn you get a tough time getting realistic prices from people for custom dev work.
Everyone wants a 3k website for $50.
Not many people ahve the cash or the incentive to fund a developer to spend 2 months building them a custom components. on a per hour basis how much do you think Phil a forms cost? 5k? more probably. Who in their right mind would pay 5k for phil a forms?
Answer - > No one.
Then what does the dev do between custom jobs? stop eating? If he has to include his downtime into his cost then phil a forms is now more like 10k. Who would pay 10k for Phil a forms? I will give you a hint - Less than no one ;D
I think selling GPL code is fine -if- it is yours or you made a significant enhancement to it. I do agree with you totally though that simply repackaging something and selling it as my own is crud. See the cartoon in my sig for more on this!
I repeat my question to you though.
Exactly how much code have you returned to the community for all the sites you have built using GPL code? How much money have you donated to developers (or Joomla itself even) for all the fact that you can provide people with such cheap sites and thus ensure your own livelihood?
Have you actually contributed anything back to the community at all?
The developers you criticise so much have all contributed at least 2x as much free code as they have charged for. So you are criticing people who have given more to this community than you because you want to make money for free? -
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- Roger Davis
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Daniel,
Glad that there's an unambiguous way around the GPL that everyone can agree on. Unfortunately, proprietary extensions succumbed to the fuzzy boundary between extension and framework...the GPL reached out and goggled them up because of the ambiguity inherent in the phrase "derivative works".
But fortunately, there is a precedent for the distinction between applications and application libraries already recognized by the GPL itself : GPL versus Lesser GPL.
So, we will never have to worried about the GPL reaching out and goggling up the libraries.
Roger
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Exactly. That's why I went over the code and looked for the loopholes.
I am very good at finding loopholes. Just ask my parents.
They told me once when I was a kid (25 odd years ago..) to go to my room and that they "...dont want to see you (me) come out that door!" so I went out the window. ;D
However, my real wish would be that the community rose up to support the devs so that didn't need such stupid measures and could release GPL and still get paid by the people who used their code. Because they provided value to the downloader, why shouldn't the downloader provide value back? -
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- Rick O Banion
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
Daniel Chapman wrote:
But in a GPL envrionemtn you get a tough time getting realistic prices from people for custom dev work.
Everyone wants a 3k website for $50.
Not many people ahve the cash or the incentive to fund a developer to spend 2 months building them a custom components. on a per hour basis how much do you think Phil a forms cost? 5k? more probably. Who in their right mind would pay 5k for phil a forms?
Answer - > No one.
Then what does the dev do between custom jobs? stop eating? If he has to include his downtime into his cost then phil a forms is now more like 10k. Who would pay 10k for Phil a forms? I will give you a hint - Less than no one ;D
I think selling GPL code is fine -if- it is yours or you made a significant enhancement to it. I do agree with you totally though that simply repackaging something and selling it as my own is crud. See the cartoon in my sig for more on this!
I repeat my question to you though.
Exactly how much code have you returned to the community for all the sites you have built using GPL code? How much money have you donated to developers (or Joomla itself even) for all the fact that you can provide people with such cheap sites and thus ensure your own livelihood?
Have you actually contributed anything back to the community at all?
The developers you criticise so much have all contributed at least 2x as much free code as they have charged for. So you are criticing people who have given more to this community than you because you want to make money for free?
I have criticized no one. I give back financially. I am not a programmer.
Joomla sites are a side hobby for me and certainly not my livelihood.
People come to me with a budget and a site idea. I test component combinations, layouts and pay a few younger local guys to try and beat the site up. Then if all is well, we put it all together for the customer. The reason I went to Joomla was because I didn't have to do much coding. The reason I went with Rocket theme was because customizing was easy. This makes everything affordable for entry level businesses. That is my niche. None of the sites I do go too deeply into custom components. If I need a custom component, I hire someone to do it. My day job as a manager for a large company taught me the business side of things...and that it is often easier to farm out work to experts rather than try and be a jack of all trades.
But this is totally off topic and trying to make personal judgements does not further your argument. I do agree that there is a need for higher end components. I just believe the component makers have to rethink the way they package it all. IF they want it commercial, they have to have it in two seperate units..the OS portion and the commercial.
Even commercial software (like Invision Power Board) never object to commercial modifications provided the modification represents unique work and leave copyright information in place. Well designed and functional sites are the best advertisement for any software.
Things like iJoomla (which I have purchased twice) Phil-a-form (purchased three times) et al can continue to exist if they read how to package their work.
I doubt there is anything to prevent the component makers from charging delivery or access fees. Nothing stops someone now from buying a commercial component and redistributing it. You can only take action after the fact.
So all I am really saying is, I don't think this really changes much other than how people approach the entire system..the end result will still be the same. Perhaps the commercial developers should be thinking of ways to give back to Joomla. Licensing anyone?
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
You did criticize people, you criticised the proprietry 3pd's for..
Essentially, people were making money off of the core unique coding of Joomla, which is not at all in the spirit of open source software and is a slippery slope to the commercialization of an OS product.
which ...
was encrypted which annoyed me to no end
I agree with you that encryption is a pain in the backside. I dislike it and would never use it myself. However I don't mind other's using it if the extention meets my needs, which most have.
Rick O Banion wrote:Joomla sites are a side hobby for me and certainly not my livelihood.Ahh but it does. Because so many people who criticise the 3pd's are people who just want free stuff. Who want the work of others for as little as they can get or nothing.
People come to me with a budget and a site idea. I test component combinations, layouts and pay a few younger local guys to try and beat the site up. Then if all is well, we put it all together for the customer. The reason I went to Joomla was because I didn't have to do much coding. The reason I went with Rocket theme was because customizing was easy. This makes everything affordable for entry level businesses. That is my niche. None of the sites I do go too deeply into custom components. If I need a custom component, I hire someone to do it. My day job as a manager for a large company taught me the business side of things...and that it is often easier to farm out work to experts rather than try and be a jack of all trades.
But this is totally off topic and trying to make personal judgements does not further your argument.
How much someone has contributed is vitally important as it completely validates their ability to even argue or not. If someone has not contributed back to the community even a tiny portion of what it has contributed to them it is a perfect example of the reason the 3pd's have to start encrypting.
Because so many people just want a free ride.
They, as you pointed out, wear their "I don't pay for extensions" like some sort of badge of honour as if it means they are a supporter of open source. When in reality all it means is they are proud to take the work of others without compensating them for it.
Let me repeat:
Essentially, people were making money off of the core unique coding of Joomla, which is not at all in the spirit of open source software and is a slippery slope to the commercialization of an OS product.
The spirit of open source has NOTHING to do with commerce or making money from code. It has to do with locking up code. Which has (unfortunately) happenned because too many people feel it is their right to just take code for -no cost- from people who spent hours wiriting it.
I agree that encryption is against the spirit of OS but making money certainly isn't!
Fot you it may be a hobby, but for the 3pd's it's their life. Would you do your management job if your company told you 'your department is just a hobby (even though we make money from it), so we have decided we don't need to pay you any more, go find another part time job to support yourself if you want.'
This is what a lot fo people are telling extension developers. I don't need to pay you because I don't take you seriously, it's just a hobby/ open source should be free (of cost) etc...
Every web developer makes money off Joomla, even me. Why is it ok for us to make money and not for extensions developers?
No web dev in his right mind would build sites for nothing, but that's what a lot of people expect extension developers (and the Joomla team) to do.
Many if not most of the people who make websites make money too. A large nmber of these people would make more money than the 3pd's, plus for them a website business is often fire and forget, but the 3PDs have to keep working and working.
Why is it that the people who -enable- yourself and others to earn money are acting against the 'spirit' of open source by wanting to earn money themselves?
If more people did like you pointed out and donated to the makers of components they used and to the joomla project, then devs would not need to encrypt their code.
But too many people want the free ride.
Why are the people who simply take from the community without returning anything back the heroes here?
I do agree to the farming out vs Jack of all trades thing though. You are very likely a very competent manager. (seriously)
Rick O Banion wrote:I do agree that there is a need for higher end components. I just believe the component makers have to rethink the way they package it all. IF they want it commercial, they have to have it in two seperate units..the OS portion and the commercial.Sadly you are correct it doesn't really change anything, because people will still expect to build their sites for nothing or next to nothing on the backs of other peoples work.
Even commercial software (like Invision Power Board) never object to commercial modifications provided the modification represents unique work and leave copyright information in place. Well designed and functional sites are the best advertisement for any software.
Things like iJoomla (which I have purchased twice) Phil-a-form (purchased three times) et al can continue to exist if they read how to package their work.
I doubt there is anything to prevent the component makers from charging delivery or access fees. Nothing stops someone now from buying a commercial component and redistributing it. You can only take action after the fact.
So all I am really saying is, I don't think this really changes much other than how people approach the entire system..the end result will still be the same.
Most proprietry software is already 80% open source, they only encrypt a couple of core functions and that's it. -All- of Phils-stuff is open source last tiem I checked, and he is not alone, I was suprised a few times when I went diving into the code myself and found no encryption. This is especially true for the extensions which don't use ioncube.
Most of them don't stop you modifying the code either if you like. I have modified plenty of commercial extensions and free ones alike. What they don't like is you -distributing- their code for nothing or for your own profit.
Perhaps the commercial developers should be thinking of ways to give back to Joomla. Licensing anyone?And about 30% of the components on the JED, all GNU GPL .... which of course 'isnt' really a contribution you know. Add to that at leat 5-10% more from the template houses and you are looking at up to 40% of extensions only exists because of commercial endeavors. Yeah these guys just keep on taking don't they.
Compared to the millions of users who give um... nothing if they can help it... back... - Last Edit: 17 years 10 months ago by Daniel Chapman.
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- Rick O Banion
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
I fail to see your argument at all now. My part in the Joomla universe is not as a code or component developer. I put the code of others together. I donate for each and every component I use and for each Joomla install.
If your argument is that each person who uses Joomla should somehow contribute with components, etc., I feel to see this as even remotely reasonable.
There are a few levels in the Joomla universe...coders, artists, designers and site owners (with more in between).
The coders do the work of many. They are the nuts and bolts of the collective. The artists make things presentable. They are likely the reason that end users often choose Joomla. The templating by Andy and others and the ease of use makes a far bigger impression on my customers than anything else. Users want to see it looking nice. They honestly don't know or don't care how everything works beyond the core features like publishing a news article.
THe designers listen to the users needs, put everything together, make 1 million changes and try and guide the owner to the place he needs to be.
The Users (owners) have no idea what anyone went through to get from an idea to a website. They think everyone just pulled it out of their behind. When in fact lots of people doing many different, but related things, all made a contribution. No ones single contribution is more important than the others. Since, without one of them, Joomla would not exist to be what it is today.
Component makers are a vital part of the team, but not the most important (or conversely least important) part of the chain.
I would suggest to you that the Joomla core team has made many correct and forward thinking decisions in the past and there is no reason to think this one is any different. It is their job to decide the path and the future..this is what they have chosen. We can all either live with it or look for other solutions.
If you think Joomla is big now..wait another year (although this has nothing to do with this decision). Joomla is about to bust into the entry level user market when 1.5 is done like never before. I have seen what it can do for even the most computer illiterate owners out there. I've had a few hundred people test it for me at work and even the guy who detests computers found it amazing how easy he could make a page with it. It is going to be big..really big.
If my company said my department was now just a hobby..I would leave and go somewhere else. I do not have an emotional attachment to my job or to software (although I often cozy up to my Photoshop).
My complaint about encryption was a complaint about the decision..not about a person. I simply won't buy the product again..thats all.
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- Andy Miller
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- Web Kahuna
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- Daniel Chapman
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
last post on the derailment to clarify -
I removed any entries from my post that were directed at you specifically after reading your post in the other thread. I appreciate your contributions, and respect you for doing what so many others do not. However the point still stands that the community needs to support the Devs more if they want GPL to be viable. For every donator like you there is at least 1000 who don't.
Support does not have to be in code. But something should be given back be it money images etc. It is up to people themselves to decide what they can contribute best. But it can only be successful if everyone puts in what they can.
I also agree that the core team has made -as correct a descision as the could- given the circumstances.
You said you would leave and go elsewhere if your company siad they considered yoru dept a hobby. Well that's what a lot of devs do when their work gets treated as a hobby and not rewarded. Hence why everyone needs to do their bit to ensure that everyone can do their bit.
I also fail to see my argument anymore. ;D
See you! I am out of here to write comics. -
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- Marty F
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Re: All commercial extensions & templates available for Joomla are now open source?
Posted 17 years 10 months ago-
As he posted before, Andy now strongly supports GPL as the way forward for Joomla!. If GPL is "the only path" and "there are many ways to create a viable business around commercial GPL extensions" why doesn't Andy go beyond just RocketWerx and apply it to RocketTheme as well?
I know that he doesn't have to "legally" because of the GPL, but that isn't really the point. It would a strong demonstration of belief in the value and values of open source. Depending on your point of view, templates may or may not be considered software. That point doesn't matter anyway because the GPL can be applied to other things than just "software".
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