Must Joomla Extensions all be GNU/GPL? Have your say.
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- Andy Miller
- Preeminent Rocketeer
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- Web Kahuna
- Regarding the javascript, it's not actually ecrypted, it's just compressed. I intend on releasing these GPL in the future on rocketwerx actually but have not had time to do so. If you want the source, just PM me. I have no issues sending you the source. The other thing is that i'm not ready for the other 'clubs' to copy the javascript quite yet, I want to have them up on joomlacode and rocketwerx before I do that, but I have absolutely no issue giving the source version to folks who ask until then.
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- CG Icon
- Hero Rocketeer
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So,, given what I have been reading...I have a small question then,, so why all the copyrights at the bottom of plugins and themes.....????
if I understand right all they can attach a copyright to is the .CSS and some image files???? but thats all,,, right??
or am I reading this wrongly?
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- damo
- Elite Rocketeer
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Andy Miller wrote:
Just want to point out that changing a license from gpl to something else requires the approval of all commiters to the joomla codebase, and because the codebase was forked from mambo, all mambo commiters too. Even something like adding a rider, needs to go through the same approval process. Not to say this is impossible, it's just really really really hard
thats interesting and i didn't know that.
but won't mambo be in the same boat, in terms of non GPL components been used in a GPL product ... wouldn't it be in the interest of the mambo foundation also to do something like this? - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- Andrew Eddie
- Rocketeer
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- Yes, Mambo would be in the same boat.
- Andrew Eddie
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Andrew Eddie wrote:
Hi All. Most of you know me a masterchief on the Joomla! forums. I'm teaming up with Andy to deliver some really cool free and commercial components over the coming months. I will probably make more comment later but I just want to share with you some thoughts. ....
Andrew: I'm delighted to hear that you and Andy Miller will be creating things together. Superb news. And thank you for joining this discussion.
But frankly, I remain confused about your position. I've quoted your first paragraph, above, in which you say you'll be delivering commercial components (as well as free ones). Then you add a fascinating (and compelling) argument against commercial, non-GPL licenses for Joomla related software.
I respect your experience. But what exactly is the business model that you advocate? Besides supporting the RocketTheme club, I've purchased at least 3 commercial Joomla extensions (iJoomla magazine, and JomComment & MyBlog from Azrul Studio). Azrul in particular is emailing me right now, asking me to take a public stand on this issue. Their products are very good (as are Andy's superb templates) -- good enough that I felt they were worth up-front investment, and I've been very happy with the support and the overall experience.
Before I read your post, I was willing to state publicly that developers should be allowed to sell Joomla-related software. Now I'm not so sure.
Can you simply spell out the position that you feel is proper for a commercial developer to take?
Thank you.
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- GollumX
- Elite Rocketeer
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Ideally, all commercial developers would take the route core joomla team wants them to, ie. to sell their extensions but leave them GNU/GPL.
However, this isn't very practical, given that human nature compels most people to get things as cheap as they can. Sites will soon pop up "freejoomla.com - your source for FREE commercial extensions". Commercial developers won't make money, and extension development will dry up.
IMO if possible Joomla should put the rider back into the license but should not go as far as allow code to be encrypted/encoded. Anything that requires ioncube, for example, should be a no-no. - Say no to Internet Explorer 6.
twitter.com/mark_up
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
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Andy Miller wrote:
Regarding the javascript, it's not actually ecrypted, it's just compressed. I intend on releasing these GPL in the future on rocketwerx actually but have not had time to do so. If you want the source, just PM me. I have no issues sending you the source. The other thing is that i'm not ready for the other 'clubs' to copy the javascript quite yet, I want to have them up on joomlacode and rocketwerx before I do that, but I have absolutely no issue giving the source version to folks who ask until then.
I stand ever so humbly (and in a way gladly) corrected. I will edit my posts shortly.
However my argument for niche Extensions still stands.
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- Daniel Chapman
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I still would like to know what is going to happen to those customers who already possess non GPL code. Will they be required to remove said code?
They might also be a bit upset when the companies which provided it suddenly vanish overnight.
I know of several Australian Government sites using commercial components and they paid well into the 6 figures (several projects) for their sites. Now Joomla is going to tell them that it is going to force the companies that support those components out of business. -
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- Andrew Eddie
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spacewalk wrote:
Can you simply spell out the position that you feel is proper for a commercial developer to take?Ah, I so wanted to be an astronaut when I was little
I can't really say what's proper, but I can tell you what I'm going to do - at least so much as I've worked out the details.
Ok, the first thing to say is I don't put all my eggs in the one basket. By the end of the year I hope to have a business that is going a bit of consulting, a bit of professional training and a bit of product development. Each has it's seasons and one is able to support the other through the respective winters. This is important because if you have one guy that lives and breathes off selling one component - if his sales go down, so does his support and development.
I have three commercial products: a Zine (like iJoomla but not really), a Catalog come Commerce solution (like VirtueMart only usable and skinable), and a simple forms component (like mosForms, but less functionality but actually usable). These fund a few free components; RokReporter that's been around for a while now, and RokACL which is 1.5 on "true" ACL (finally yay! ... catch is I don't know who much support I'll have for Joomla! native components).
These commercial works are all GPL but only available for download after you pay for them (hopefully I get more than one sale). There's no domain restriction, you get it, you install it where you want. After you pay your bucks, you get access to a few things - and these are the things I need to have to be the incentive for people to part with their dollars - and obviously allow me to keep doing cool stuff.
You get the extension, obviously, and usually a suite of modules and plugins that go with it. You get access to support forum areas. You get access to private areas for other purchasers to be able to discuss stuff. You get access to premium documenation and hopefully videotorials (neither of which are GPL). I'd like to be able to throw extra goodies to you throughout a versions life-cycle, extra modules, whatever, generally value-added stuff. You obviously are the first to know about updates and patches. We might do a newsletter, or tip letter, dunno yet.
There are a few other things that I want to keep under the covers lest my yet to be competitors try and do something about it Suffice to say I do mega-components, insanely flexible, but a bit of a chore to configure correctly ... something that reduces that chore would obviously be an advantage.
Because it's open source, you can see what you pay for. You can modify it in-house, etc. ONe caveat is that there is nothing stopping you from buying one copy and then posting on your site for 10 bucks less (which I see has already been alluded to by one businessman). It's legal, but I would kinda hope those people reap what they sow. But I hope I can offer sufficient quality and service that I generate enough loyalty to keep a healthy level of development happening. On the financial side - I just need enough to be comfortable and the rest I want to push more and more into my nominated charity (I'd love to be at the point where I keep 10% of my income and give 90% away - that's my goal).
I'm not worried about the warez sites because I don't want those people as clients anyway. I'm not overly worried about the "freejoomla.net" sites because a) I can do some trickiness with copyright notices, that I give paying customers permission to remove, and b) it's free advertising! I'm not worried about people seeing my code because everyone knows how I code anyway.
Honestly, I have a *tonne* of code lying around drives that I just want to see the light of day, and charge a fair amount to be able to sustain a business to deliver that. And as I've mentioned, my only motive for more profit would be so that I can give more away and make a difference in the world.
Daniel Chapman wrote:I know of several Australian Government sites using commercial components and they paid well into the 6 figures (several projects) for their sites. Now Joomla is going to tell them that it is going to force the companies that support those components out of business.Joomla! won't tell them anything. It will be up to the site owner to decide what they do. And also, that 6 figures would have been mostly implementation cost, not license fees (at least I hope not - I built most Mambo 4.5.0 and 4.5.1 full time for less than 6 figures). You from Australia or just know the jobs? - Andrew Eddie
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- Daniel Chapman
- Elite Rocketeer
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Joomla! won't tell them anything. It will be up to the site owner to decide what they do. And also, that 6 figures would have been mostly implementation cost, not license fees (at least I hope not - I built most Mambo 4.5.0 and 4.5.1 full time for less than 6 figures). You from Australia or just know the jobs?
Both! Though I live in japan now.
The six figures are implementation yes, however if the major components in the site are no longer updated or supportable and there is the fear of litigation (even if it only the possibility of it) then these organisations will have to either redevelop with GPL components, in which case the initial investment is wasted, or they have to go it alone with unsupported encrypted components while having the shadow of -potential- litigation following them.
It's like telling them that the engines in the cars in their fleet are now illegal or the manufacturer has been closed by the overall car manufacturer who will no longer support those engines either.
It's a pretty bleak choice either way, and not one that will endear Joomla to them for future projects.
Exec A - 'What CMS will we use for the new project? Joomla again?'
Exec B - 'Are you crazy, we had enough trouble when they went to version 1.5 and shut down all their major component vendors. Not only do we now have a bunch of unsupported websites but there are there less component options for us now, and who knows what they will do and in the future. Lets just use Drupal. At least they don't change their mind about what people are allowed and not allowed to develop halfway through the product life cycle leaving almost every single one of their users high and dry.'
As a side note, I just realised that although Andy said he will mail out the source code, he is concerned about people copying it. (sorry to keep bringing you up Andy)
Edit: addressed below
That said, I am looking forward to your components. I will come sign up at least.
- Last Edit: 16 years 10 months ago by Daniel Chapman.
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