Must Joomla Extensions all be GNU/GPL? Have your say.
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- James Spencer
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timothy jones wrote:
That is a very good assessment of the problem, wich is really a non problem.
Some have chosen to make this into a much larger issue than it needs to be. And that makes you wonder to motiive.
My guess is some will follow this wisdom and adjust the business model. Others will continue to rage against the machine and leave or ride the fense.
In my opinion, for every one that leaves there will be others step in and replace them with working business models.
Regardless, The GPL position is a good one, and should be supported.
An extremely good point
- James Spencer / Developer & Support / Hull, UK
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- Adrian Cooper
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Exactly.
Joomla isn't broken and GPL isn't broken - they are both proven. What is broken is the attitudes of some people towards both.
My hope is that the Joomla core developers and extension makers, both GPL and commercial, will ignore all the background noise and just get on with it. - www.ourultimatereality.com
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- damo
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hold on a second guys. this is an issue for some. so to say its a non-issue or to suggest that you know better, and you're not actually a developer of non gpl extensions (forget saying commercial) is just so bloody annoying
joomla had a rider to the license, from what i understand, that said something along the lines of non gpl extensions can be used ... the developers are, i'm guessing, mostly annoyed at this getting removed ...
but the thing is to this buying membership stuff; if i've ever had to buy a component that i couldn't, quite literally just install i haven't been happy and i've never gone back. i've got loads of examples; early ijoomla for example. i may one day go back to them because i hear positive things but on my early experience it wasn't good
look at jom comment or anything from phil taylor for example ... you can buy that, install it and it works. the good extensions, in my opinion, the ones that do that, are the ones that will get exploited and there will be nothing the developers can do ... and they're a little pissed off because things have changed
for what its worth and i'm saying this because some people may be reading it, i'll buy non gpl extensions if they do the job. because i'll be happier knowing that, from my experience, they just work - Last Edit: 16 years 9 months ago by damo.
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- Daniel Chapman
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timothy jones wrote:
That is a very good assessment of the problem, wich is really a non problem.A very simple motive. Their livelihood has just been thrown into doubt. If your boss told you tomorrow that you still had to come to work but he would pay you only if he felt like it. Would you be upset?
Some have chosen to make this into a much larger issue than it needs to be. And that makes you wonder to motiive.
Please don't start trying to create hidden motives where there aren't any.
timothy jones wrote:My guess is some will follow this wisdom and adjust the business model. Others will continue to rage against the machine and leave or ride the fense.Which begs the question why aren't there dozens of these successful business models around? There are literally thousands of GPL projects in the world, but not a lot of (are there any???) successful small businesses using the gpl.
In my opinion, for every one that leaves there will be others step in and replace them with working business models.
As I said above, some can adapt to a new model, but not all products can.
I am also wondering where these ones who will step in will come from? There has never been anything stopping people stepping now. Why does everyone seem to think there is a pool of magical GPL programmers that come out of the mists to save projects??
The JED is already full of abandonded GPL projects that no one has picked up. The core team by their own admission is struggling to find testers and developers.
Where are all these developers? Why aren't they working on extensions now?
Are any of you going to step up to fill those spots? If not then I suggest you stop criticising those who are giving you extensions and questioning their motives because they want to eat and feed their families. -
www.ninjoomla.com
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Over 50 open source extensions and 100 videos to you build the site you want.
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- Adrian Cooper
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The JED is already full of abandonded GPL projects that no one has picked up. The core team by their own admission is struggling to find testers and developers.
Where are all these developers? Why aren't they working on extensions now?
And that, right there, is one major issue with GPL, and why I prefer to purchase commercial extensions. My experience with Open SEF, simple re-inforces that view.
There is still very much a "free" mentality on the Internet, and the rule that always applies is "you get what you pay for". Considering people often rely on a Joomla site for a living, I just cannot understand why people are reluctant to invest in their own business. I come from the bricks and mortar world of computer sales, and we would spend 7 figures per month in overheads without thinking twice. These days people complain about spend $5 per month on a website which is there shop windown on the world - and with a global audience instead of a town or whatever.
If I am making serious sites with Joomla, and I need serious extensions to make the site work as I would like it, Open SEF being a good example, I need to know these extensions will be fully supported, enhanced, updated and migrated to Joomla 1.5 and beyond.
I have the greatest respect for GPL extensions, but you simple can't always rely on them for a serious site, and that is one of the reasons why Joomla is still not a corporate product. Core Joomla does not provide enough features, and GPL extensions simply cannot be relied upon. For that reason most of the extensions I choose are commercial, and I have to be very sure that any non-commercial extensions I use are going to meet the above requirements.
Take this site for example - there are gazillions of free Joomla templates out there, yet we all prefer to pay for professional templates. What is so different about extensions?
I am firmly of the view that Joomla, starting with 1.5, will make it much easier to hook in to for commercial extensions without all of thes GPL/non-GPL issues.
What we need IMO are two Joomla extension directories - commercial and GPL so we know were to go. - www.ourultimatereality.com
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- Amy Stephen
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Wow! What great comments!
I'd agree it's not a non-event for proprietary developers. I'd even go as far to say that this is a huge challenge. As I saw all of this unfold, I'll be honest, it was a bit shocking to me and I don't market proprietary extensions.
But, Adrian and Timothy are 100% right that this is a non-problem. I apologize if this sounds hard-core. But, the clock is ticking. I'm 45 years old and I've been in IT for 25 years. I've seen change. I've seen resistance to change. I've seen people take advantage of change and I've seen people lose ground.
My biggest frustration is all the noise about "religious zealots" and "opposition to commercial software." As I watch this story unfold, I see people protesting and I see others moving. This isn't about fundamentalist views on the GPL - this is about adapting to change, plain and simple.
The direction has been set and I cannot imagine it is going to change back. There will be people making money in the Joomla! community with software and services. Those who are able to adapt to these new business models will be financial winners. I am honestly surprised at how quickly some have positioned themselves.
I saw one blog comment that really summed it up for me. The commenter was complaining that Joomla! was not supportive of people who feel sorry for proprietary developers. That is when it hit me. Some people aren't interested in anyone else's pity and those are the very same people who have kept firm control of their ability to make money. This will not stop them.
I am sincerely hopeful for Joomla!'s future and excited to see where we are at this time, next year.
Amy
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- Adrian Cooper
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Hi Amy,
Another veteran I am 51 and done 31 years in IT including 16 years in the Internet - before the Web was invented, and I have seen countless religious crusades in that time - and there are no winners.
I founded one of the first four national Internet Service Providers, and I was visiously attacked for "daring" to offer POP3 for people to collect email - you were supposed to be an "extention" of the Internet and use SMTP, as well as other features that I dared to offer, against the prevailing religion - and in those days the Internet really was a religion. If you didn't do everything with a command line, FTP and Telnet you were a "newbie". And honestly I have seen and been involved in numerous other such situations, because I have always been innovative, and refused to bow down to the vociferous few who think they are right because they puritans who believed only they knew what was good for the Internet.
On the commercial side, I had a 5 year viscious battle with a company some may remember called "Lotus Corporation" and I mean it was nasty, with them threating to sue us etc., because we were selling Lotus 1-2-3 by mailorder at a discount - they wanted to sue us because they said it "devalued their product". So at a very major exhibition we teamed up with Computer Associates who made a rival spreadsheet, Supercalc 3 at the time, and offered a "free upgrade to Supercalc" in exchange for a Lotus 1-2-3 box. Needless to say we had plenty of takers. At the end of the exhibition we made a huge pyramid of Lotus 1-2-3 boxes, invited all the press photographers around, and had lots of pictures taken with happy ex- 1-2-3 users It was amazing A couple of years later Lotus was a non-entity.
The reason I mention this is because these religious wars such as GPL v propritory v commercial motivated by a puritanical fanaticism is a lose lose situation.
We need all three and they are not mutually exclusive. Without the commercial extensions Joomla will always be a hobbyist CMS, and then you can guarantee someone will either fork it or some other CMS with a more open-minded, commerially oriented, long-term outlook will come along, and then Joomla will end up like Lotus 1-2-3 and countless others in the IT graveyard.
We simple need to separate the various options, commercial and non-commercial Joomla add-ons so everyone knows where they stand. For my part I will use whatever extensions suite my long-term objectives as I do with Windows, Linux etc. and always have. Speaking of Linux, the only reason it has never threatened Windows is because, like Joomla, it is seen as a hobbyist toy when it could become the industry standard.
Of course as GPL, someone could even do a minor Joomla fork and start selling that as a commercial, professional CMS with professional extensions and that has happened numerous times in the past. A commercially supported CMS can invest heavily in full-time developers, support, marketing etc..
I am not suggesting that core Joomla goes commercial, far from it, but at the same time it needs to welcome and encourage commercial initiatives that add to its strength.
I don't apologise at all if that seems hard core - having seen it all before, over and over, I just don't want to see Joomla go the same way.
Didn't anyone learn any lessons from Mambo? - Last Edit: 16 years 9 months ago by Adrian Cooper.
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- damo
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Adrian Cooper wrote:
The reason I mention this is because these religious wars such as GPL v propritory v commercial is a lose lose situation.
sorry to bring this up on your specific post but i think one of the the things people don't seem to understand is it's not about gpl v commercial or v anything ...
and every time someone writes commercial v gpl it just makes it that much more difficult for people to understand
it's about non gpl, not commercial. while i may be seen as pedantic its actually quite important - www.c3p0.se - sweden
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- Adrian Cooper
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damo wrote:
it's about non gpl, not commercial. while i may be seen as pedantic its actually quite important
Well I think it is safe to say that most commercial is non-GPL and that to me is the main issue. - www.ourultimatereality.com
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- James Spencer
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However, it is still misleading to imply that commerical and GPL are separate. Just a note
That said, a great post
- James Spencer / Developer & Support / Hull, UK
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