Must Joomla Extensions all be GNU/GPL? Have your say.
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- Amy Stephen
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Adrian - Guess what email system we use at the University? lol! Are we the *only* LN users still around?
Change is difficult; it always has been and it always will be. Those who figure out how to adapt more quickly to this change will capture more of the market. In the end, that's more important to commercial developers, certainly not someone's pity for their situation.
We'll get there!
Amy
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A very simple motive. Their livelihood has just been thrown into doubt. If your boss told you tomorrow that you still had to come to work but he would pay you only if he felt like it. Would you be upset?
Please don't start trying to create hidden motives where there aren't any.
One flaw in your analogy, Folks who wrote commercial non GPL extensions should have been aware of the possible consequences.
My boss employs me because I am of value to the organization. I work here because they pay me and both parties are aware of what they are getting into and accept their prospective decisions. And agree to policies and agreements.
For your analogy to work I would have to be employed here in violation of some company policy and they would have to ignore my behavior because they love me that much. NOT
And like it or not, some of the behavior I have seen from some of the Commercial Developers is starting to make people wonder what they are really motivated by. and I am not alone. - Last Edit: 16 years 9 months ago by .
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- Amy Stephen
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timothy jones wrote:
And like it or not, some of the behavior I have seen from some of the Commercial Developers is starting to make people wonder what they are really motivated by. and I am not alone.
Agreed. I've been shocked by what a very small minority have done. People who used to banter around the word "community" who clearly do not feel that way. I would love to see a Code of Ethics for Commercial Entities evolve. I'd also like to see some of the ethical commercial folks step up and say "I am NOT with that!" We are starting to see that, too, and man, is that is encouraging.
There is no excuse for some of the things that have been done. None. I'll leave it at that. 'Nuff said.
I'm absolutely done with the debate. I'm looking forward to Joomla!'s future and I will not apologize for that.
Amy
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- Adrian Cooper
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- Technologist, Published Author
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Amy Stephen wrote:
Adrian - Guess what email system we use at the University? lol! Are we the *only* LN users still around?
Change is difficult; it always has been and it always will be. Those who figure out how to adapt more quickly to this change will capture more of the market. In the end, that's more important to commercial developers, certainly not someone's pity for their situation.
We'll get there!
Amy
That is an excellent point Amy.
Resistance to change has been one of the very major factors in all of these situations. The Internet itself was like that in the beginning with all of the academic and government "nerds" from the ARPANET days being intensely resentful of the "common man" being allowed loose on it. And the Web was the final straw for them. Operating systems are the same, with the Windows, Linux and Mac camps all believing they are the "real" operating systems.
Another long running dispute I had when I founded my Internet Service provider busness was I used a ".net" domains name. In those days all domain name applications went to a committe who looked at each application and accepted or rejected it as they saw fit. I managed to get a ".net" domain through a different route, and ".net" was perfectly OK of a "network" provider, and I had to defend for over 2 years why I did not use a ".com". And that was just a small example of the incredibly puratanical attitude in those days.
But compare that to now. Times move on and Joomla must as well or pay the price in two years max. Joomla beyond 1.5 looks very murky, and how long will 2 lead developers keep going.
And Timothy - I agree, there are commercial developers out there who fall way below the standards of free ones, and like you I have encountered a few myself. But surely we have the right to make decisions, and accept the consequences. On balance commercial products are better supported, and have a clear future which is important.
When Joomla 1.5 is released, how many people who rely on extensions for the current version will be stuck on the current version? I might be one of them. Commercial developers are already working on 1.5 versions of their extensions because they are motivated.
At the final analysis, it isn't for anyone to pre-judge - let the market decide in the time honored tradition. - www.ourultimatereality.com
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At the final analysis, it isn't for anyone to pre-judge - let the market decide in the time honored tradition.
Now that is a concept I can embrace in this whole debate.
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- Amy Stephen
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timothy jones wrote:
At the final analysis, it isn't for anyone to pre-judge - let the market decide in the time honored tradition.
Now that is a concept I can embrace in this whole debate.
Yup!
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- Daniel Chapman
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timothy jones wrote:
One flaw in your analogy, Folks who wrote commercial non GPL extensions should have been aware of the possible consequences.
My boss employs me because I am of value to the organization. I work here because they pay me and both parties are aware of what they are getting into and accept their prospective decisions. And agree to policies and agreements.
For your analogy to work I would have to be employed here in violation of some company policy and they would have to ignore my behavior because they love me that much. NOT
And like it or not, some of the behavior I have seen from some of the Commercial Developers is starting to make people wonder what they are really motivated by. and I am not alone.
Actually there is a flaw in yours also.
Lets say you were doing something that might or might not be wrong, and no one was sure if it was or not, but your company put a big sign up saying 'It's ok to do this we won't put you in danger or let others do so'. So you started working.
Then suddenly in the dark of night they take down the sign. And put up a new one 'You are all definitely doing something illegal and morally wrong and if you don't re-educate yourself you may get into legal trouble from us or someone else'.
But regardless analogies aren't the best way to prove a point merely to illustrate it clearly.
I have also been shocked by the behavior of the J! team so what is your point?
Amy you yourself were telling people to 'shut your mouth' only the other day for daring to disagree. That says volumes in itself.
The moderators delete any posts that present unrefutable facts or difficult questions. Others they move to the lounge where a person is set upon by the team for their 're-education' without support.
Also don't start throwing about the word community Amy. Joomla at the moment is as far from a community oriented democracy as you can get. There is no community consultations. They even started removing and changing the OSM by laws without notice to remove their community reporting responsibilities and shifting the descision making power further from the community with the 'oversight' commitee restructuring.
On top of that we have the OSM president insinuating that anyone who disagrees with them is a criminal and needs 'educating' on her blog. And Louis more obviously stating out that anyone disagreeing is 'stupid' and sharing private emails meant for other people (regardless of the content of the email). Johan has called 3PDS poison, pollution and parasites all in a single sentence! And that was before this mess even began.
Then we had Rob saying that the comunity couldn't be trusted and they would continue their heavy moderating until people grew up.
Good upstanding examples of community, and ethical behaviour there from the project heads no less.
Tim again you allude to these mysterious motivations. Why are they? What is it that you and the others with whom you are not alone really think it is? There is term for what you are doing and it's called 'FUD'. You present baseless, factless speculation and then attempt to prove it with allusions to potentially existing other people who share your views thus validating them.
Out of curiousity are you a commercial Joomla extension developer (GPL or not)? If not how can you understand what it is like to be in there position? It's much easier to judge people when you are looking at them from your own situtation.
Amy you still haven't answered my earlier question. Do you donate every time you download? -
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- Amy Stephen
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Daniel -
Thanks for raising that issue. I do need to address the mistake I made. I actually emailed Phil Roy Sunday and told him the same thing. Honestly, I meant that as a joke. The point was raised that something wasn't fair in Joomla! land and I was trying to say - yes - you are right - look at all we get for nothing - now, "be quiet" - "hush" - "don't say a word" - "shut your mouth" or they will find out how unfair it is!
It came out HORRIBLY! To make matters worse, I only said I was being sarcastic when I was called on it from SEVERAL people. I should have apologized. And Phil Roy didn't deserve a nasty response and he felt I had attacked him. Very embarrassing mistake.
So, I sent a note to Phil Roy for my mistake. And, I admit it, that wasn't my best written blog comment. Now, my reputation has been damaged and I am going to have to earn back respect. That's what happens. I'm an extrovert - I've made many very public mistakes before, and sadly, I will do so, again, in the future.
Dan - I'm very happy with the Joomla! community. I have had the honor to meet many of the Joomla! core team and I will tell you this --> I like these people. I am impressed by their dedication. I am amazed by their intellect and vision for Joomla!. And, I find them to be amongst the most interesting, fun, positive, intelligent and ethical people that I know. I am honored by being a community member in their project.
I hope you decide to continue with us with Joomla!. But, if it makes you so very unhappy and if you can't get behind the direction we are heading, it might be best if you find another project with a license you respect and a community you believe in.
I'm strapped in and ready for our future and I will not apologize for feeling good about this. But, Dan, I have no interest in engaging you in a debate. I do, however, wish you the best!
Amy
PS - I've been a BIG mcsmom fan for a couple of years when she was almost invisible, quitely helping one newbie after the other find the Joy of Joomla!. To see Elin emerge as a leader in our community has been a thrill to me. - Last Edit: 16 years 9 months ago by Amy Stephen.
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Well, I did send you one of my concerns in private.
I dont find it productive to do it publicly, beside people can read for their own and I am not alludiing to anything.
I am saying straight out, users are not without brains. The camp of developers that are causing some of the static have in my mind some things that hurt their cause.
We will see in the end if my conclusions are correct.
In the mean time, take a breath.
Here is what I think
If you are "right" then time will prove you as right, and my opinion wont matter a hoot.
If I am right the same thing
Chances are we are both half right, so we must wait and see.
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- Andrew Eddie
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I think the main issue here is to try and support those that are having a go at trying to make it all work, or are trying to find creative solutions. I think so much effort is being wasted on the etherial "bridge" that is going to magically work around the GPL. By the time it is invented the market will have changed and those betting on that horse will be equally left out in the cold (my opinion).
I don't know that anyone is going to get it perfect first go. Some models will favour the dev at the expense of the customer, and some the reverse. the right balance of models is going to take a bit of working through. Even for me, I sort of know what I what to do, but the devil in the detail is changing constantly. You wake up one day and think "hang on, that is dumb, it's too complicated for the user", or "ok, if I tweak this, the customer wins and I can leverage more recurrent income".
I can sympathise with those that have had the goal posts shifted. But also taking the philosophical view that the license is only one part of making a business, it does not make or break it - so let's work out how you shore up a business model that is virtually independent of the license.
My thoughts anyway... - Andrew Eddie
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